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Why are Israelis/Jewish people standoffish?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Nomnomnom, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. Hehehe

    Hehehe Emperor

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    That sounds horrible. Could you please provide a source? The Finnish media has somehow failed to mention this.

    As for Israel being vilified, AFAIK the US went from one of the most popular countries in the world to one of the least popular countries following their invasion of Iraq, resulting in some incomprehensible America-bashing in a small minority of European posters. Is that so different from Israel?
     
  2. civaddict098

    civaddict098 Prince

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    This is pretty much the answer. You can't deny the hundreds of years of oppression Jews have suffered, from the ghettos and pogroms of eastern europe to the inquisition to the holocaust to post WWII pogroms. Jews today face racism and discrimination around the world all the time. Statistics on hate crimes against Jews do not show the non-criminal discrimination Jews face.

    Jews feel a very strong connection to their state due to their minority status everywhere else. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable that they will be quick to defend it.
     
  3. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    While I'm sure there are still many Jews who perceive Israel that way, I think Zionism is definitely declining amongst the US Jews, especially the younger and more secular ones.

    http://hpronline.org/hprgument/young-liberal-american-jewish-zionism/

     
  4. Tycho Brahe

    Tycho Brahe Emperor

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    All the jews I know are more critical towards Israel than I am.

    The muslims on the other hand... I very rarly hear them critizise the palestinians. Whatever atrocity they commit, it is always justifiable because they are wictims.

    I'm nor saying Israel doesn't commit atrocities, i'm only saying that I know more jews who critizise "their own".
     
  5. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    To exand of the Swedish angle - since I know it infinitely best - about neo-Nazism, Muslims extremists, the Swedish Jewish community and antisemitic hate crimes:

    Antisemtism is a non issue in Sweden, from the pov of the attitude of the absolute vast majority of Swedes. There are no antisemitical attitudes towards Jews in general.

    What there is, is 1) a very small Jewish community, we are talking numbers in the thousands, no more; 2) a very small group (couple of thousand according to the Swedish security police) of very radical violence prone right-wing extrimists, who among other groups (larger ones, like Mid Eastern immigrants and gay people) also target the small Jewish community, and 3) an even smaller violence prone group of radical Islamists (estimated at about 1500 individuals).

    The two latter groups will target Swedish Jews. Since there are so few of them, numerically the Swedish Jews might well be on a 1:1 fotting with the Neo Nazis and violent Islamists.

    Neither of these groups' direction of violence against Jews have actual support from the rest of 9,3 million inahabitants. In fact, the social dynamic right now says that the violent extremists are becoming increasingly side-lined, and as a consequence increasingly sectarian, and increasingly violent.

    Thus, any Swedish Jews who achieve any kind of public visibility, and as such is identifiable as Jewish, must factor in that he/she is now a potential target for this radical fringe. Especially since the Jews are so few in Sweden. Otoh under almost all circumstances a persons Jewishness is completely irrelevant in Sweden. (That otoh has the effect that the real antisemites make big song and dance routines about this purported "Jewish conspiracy" to infiltrate Sweden. They aren't receiving much of a hearing by the majority though, since no one really gives a hoot if someone is Jewish.)

    Since Jews, as Jews, aren't particularly visible in Sweden, what tends to happen is that their easily identifiable public venues are attacked. This means synagogues (but there are precious few of these, since the community is so small, and they tend to be protected), but more importantly it means Jewish burial grounds, which are easy to identify, usually easily accessible, rarely properly guarded, and a bunch of idiots with paint and a few hours of night time can really mess them up - a course of action that in itself than can only be antisemitic and so is symbolically very clear for all involved, perps and targets alike.

    The dynamic of the situation from the pov of the Swedish Jewish community is of course such that they feel it very palpably how they are not just a minority, but a minority at risk, against which a serious threat of violence is directed, because there is. There's nothing quite like that kind of threat to make a small group close ranks, and really bolster their sense of apartness. It's just that this threat has very little to do with the majority society, but rather with a clear minority within it.

    What needs to be monitored is the extent to which the public reaction, the police's willingness to offer protection etc., works. So far I can't say it seems particularly remiss in this, which is what really would be worrying. It is of course a problem to gauge the level of protective measures in relation to how curtailed the movements of Swedish Jews needs be. But that's a general problem. If the threat to the Swedish Jews was significant enough, protective custody would work, but what is wanted is of course that the they, like any other Swedish citizens, are allowed maximum freedom and opportunity to go about their lives. It makes it difficult to preempt attacks, it's a balancing problem, since there are small gangs of idiots (the Nazis and the Islamist crazys) out there specifically targetting them.

    Now, all that said, one still needs to factor in certain not least regional variations. There is first and foremost an actual "brown" tradition in southernmost Sweden (Scanie, surrounding the immigrant city of Malmö), even if that had always been a clear minority tradition there as well. There have been studies made that indicate that there is an historic continuity, in the form of family history, between today's antisemtical right-wingers and the Swedish Nazis of the 1930's and 40's.

    Still, the antisemites and Nazis even at that time never numbered enough to get into parliament, even if their latter day violence prone successors are becoming more violent, as they become fewer, but more dedicated.
     
  6. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    The true question is not:
    Are the people who criticizes Israel Antisemite ?

    but

    Are the Israeli who support a government in which Leibermann is foreign minister, racist against Palestiians and Arabs?
     
  7. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    Do you post a link to an article in all of your posts? Sheesh.

    Wait, so let me try to get at what you're saying: Anybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite, but it's perfectly okay to criticize a black man! :rolleyes:
     
  8. Eli

    Eli Emperor

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    Hi there, Formaldehyde. I'm still waiting for your reply concerning the Kurds.
     
  9. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    I don't want to be "rude" by only replying to part of your post while you insinuate I'm an anti-Semite and even an anti-American for merely stating the obvious.

    But you are free to try to explain why so many Jews are also "anti-Semites" and "anti-Americans" by those ludicrous standards as the article I posted above clearly shows. In fact, why the vast majority of the world also is.

    This quite obvious propaganda campaign by some of the more reactionary Zionists isn't going to work anymore. But I hope they are quite slow to realize that though, because they are literally destroying all their credibility much faster than the critics could possibly do by continuing to falsely cry wolf while labelling the real Americans as anti-Americans, and even real Semites and their supporters as being anti-Semitic.
     
  10. sysyphus

    sysyphus So they tell me

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    Nobody here denies any of the suffering that the Jews have faced over the centuries.

    That suffering, however, does not leave the state of Israel immune to criticism for its actions nor does it give the State of Israel carte blanche to do whatever it wishes to the Palestinians.

    Playing the anti-semitism card at every turn does nothing to legitimise any Israeli position, but rather only waters down the meaning of anti-semitism. Basically, it's akin to crying wolf.


    Really? I've known many.
     
  11. Nomnomnom

    Nomnomnom Zzzzzzz

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    I disagree... I don't think any reasonable person believes the killings on either side are right. Granted there are many messed up people on both sides.
     
  12. Oerdin

    Oerdin Deity

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    When you're surrounding by enemies then people tend to develop a bunker mentality.
     
  13. Eli

    Eli Emperor

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    Sorry, there must be something wrong with my sight. Can you point me to the exact sentence in which you explain why you unflinchingly accepted the Turkish position on the matter of the Kurdish struggle for independence? Why, without any sources except Turkish press releases, you accepted that the 130 men and women they killed were not civilians? Why you immediately accepted that they are terrorists and not freedom fighters? Why you completely ignored the 32000 Kurd deaths in the struggle (almost an order of magnitude more than Palestinian deaths in the last Intifada)?

    And if you're tired of explaining your own positions, why don't you answer the same questions for the world media?

    Why is Israel different, Formaldehyde?
     
  14. Fifty

    Fifty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    If Israel gets more attention in the press, it isn't because of antisemitism. It is because Israel is more important than other countries where crazy stuff is going down, since it is the leading US client state in the Middle East.
     
  15. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    I can't speak for Formaldehyde, but I'll take this opportunity to repost my previous statement on why Israel is different:

    Israel is the only democratic, liberal, highly developed Western state in the world that was artificially created in modern times, populated with American and European immigrants and that simply can not allow - whether it would like to or not - large parts of the area's previous population to remain within its territory lest demographic changes will eliminate its sole purpose for existence.

    Whatever religion you then hold is quite irrelevant - the state of Israel is judged by high standards precisely because it appears to be a high-standard nation by most normal accounts.
     
  16. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    This was the poster:



    And the poster who said it was not anti-semitic (you guessed it!) was Formaldehyde.

    Hum, I wans't trying to undercut the credibility of all media. But it is quite an obvious fact that the amount of attention they give to facts is not directly proportional to the seriousness of the facts, but rather to their opinion of what would sell more. That's why we may read more about American Idol than the Genocide in Darfur in US papers. Likewise, it seems pretty clear to me that bashing Israel is a solid strategy to sell papers in some regions of the world.

    You fail at reading comprehension, and probably at a bunch of other things. I never said that anybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-semite, and I never said anything about criticizing a black man. I didn't even criticize Obama for his statement, I criticized the double standard of many american leftists. And of course it is prefectly fine to criticize a black man, as long as the reason for the criticism is not a hatred for the man's skin color.
     
  17. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Hi. I'm an Israeli too.
    You have already got the view of Eli, who is probably without my mental issues, thus braver ;)
    I praise him for his explanations, especially vs FormalDehydration, although I prefer to ignore FormalDehydration lately. That user's a troll to me.


    Anyway, back to the topic ("Why are Israelis/Jewish people standoffish?")
    I'll tell you my view : first off - I'm an Ashkenazi left-wing atheist Israeli. There are too many opinions and subcultures in the jewish world that I think generalizing it to Israelis/Jewish is too big a step.
    The only true unity I think we have is being born jewish, and thus see ourselves as some sort of an extended family - an ethnicity.
    Just as an Italian will rather live among Italians rather than among Dutch people. He doesn't hate the Dutch, but feels home with Italians.

    The problem lies in the (rational) fear of another holocaust.
    In the text for passover, we yearly say "...in every generation men rise against us to destroy us..." (and ofcourse god saves us, but that's not the point).
    We have got only one (very small) place to call home, and we know that most of the arab world was truely educated to hate us in the name of their country and religion.
    I was happier if this was not the case, but as it is, some nations and non-nations (hamas in Gaza, for example) call to destroy Israel. Not for peace, not for an agreement.
    The western world has mostly shown his lack of desire to assist Israel, since countries like Turkey and Iran impact the EU and the US more than Israel. There is no competition there.

    When a jewish person abroad hears something bad about Israel, it is mostly fears that from some little spark, nearly half of the jewish population on earth (Israel) could be extinct. Again.
    I can relate to that. But it does not mean I don't criticize my government.
    Just like some Americans must have felt with Bush I feel with our set of clowns.
    That still doesn't mean the USA should be nuked for Guantanamo. Yes mistake, we're human, what'd'ya expect? :)

    =========== My CRITICism ==============

    criticizing Israel 1:
    Israel should devise a peace plan with the americans and force the PA into a state or unilaterally declare a palestinian state on the other side of the wall.

    criticizing Israel 2:
    More than criticizing Israel, I was quite happy that I heard that the civilian siege over Gaza was lifted, but the military one remains under some treaty that 30 countries agree on.
    It was wrong not to do so beforehand, and although the timing is awful, I'm glad we did it.
    Now the people in Gaza may have no alternative but to blame their own organization, Hammas, for keeping most of the aid money and preventing them normal lives.

    Criticism of the UN:
    However, I have some criticism of the UN, who offers no solution for getting the red cross to our captured soldier in Gaza, nor to rockets on Israeli civilians, but complains whenever we fight back in any way against the attackers.
     

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  18. Voyhkah

    Voyhkah Political Activist

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    I'm Jewish:(.

    But even I don't think that the Israelis were justified at storming those Turkish Supply Ships. I consider myself pro-israel, but think that there is bloody dirt on thehands of both sides. Even though, the original post offended me.


    There goes any respect for the guy...
     
  19. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    See? This is anti-semitism!
    He is claiming (he notes "fact") that Ashkenazim are not decendants of the Israelites.
    However, there is already many scientific papers I know of, claiming quite different, notably : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1336798/
     
  20. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    They had to make sure they are not carrying weapons.
    To lift the siege completely?
    I want that too, but the UN should FIRST find a SOLUTION to the rockets on our cities.
    Otherwise, I think we should board all ship to Gaza and deliver the goods ourselves if they don't contain weapons.

    Also, I criticized the civilian aspect of the siege, and Israel just agreed (and I'm very happy it did) to lift the ban off everything that cannot be made into a useful weapon.
    This was 2 or 3 days ago, to align with US position, but I'm all for that move.

    True. Crappy leaders. On all 3 sides (for those who missed : the west bank and Gaza are under the control of 2 different organizations), but I think Hamas plays the crazier guy in the bunch :)
    You should know that we think of most of our politicians as very corrupt, somewhat manipulative maggots, but we have to take sides. In the last election, no party won more than 25% of voters. We are fragmenting. I go defrag :mischief:
     

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