Why are Israelis/Jewish people standoffish?

[ParkCungHee]

See? This is anti-semitism!
He is claiming (he notes "fact") that Ashkenazim are not decendants of the Israelites.
However, there is already many scientific papers I know of, claiming quite different, notably : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1336798/

That doesn't necessarily negate his point. You can be descended from someone and barely related to them.

 

[boogaboo]

That doesn't necessarily negate his point. You can be descended from someone and barely related to them.

True. My bad. I proved a direct genetic connection to Israelites, but not admixture.
Let's negate it completely, since this area I know quite good..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."

And if you are wondering about the fameale line, remember that a Jew is defined as someone whose mother is jewish (father is irrelevant), and complement it with the fact that (from the same wiki page)

about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women, or "founder lineages", that were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating in the Middle East in the first and second centuries CE

In addition, Behar et al. have suggested that the rest of Ashkenazi mtDNA is originated from ~150 women, most of those likely of Middle Eastern origin.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

We in Holland are so anti-Semitic we almost had a Jewish prime-minister (only one seat short). The same guy who has been major of our Capital for Joshua knows how long.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_general_election,_2010

 

[HannibalBarka]

Hi. I'm an Israeli too.
You have already got the view of Eli, who is probably without my mental issues, thus braver
I praise him for his explanations, especially vs FormalDehydration, although I prefer to ignore FormalDehydration lately. That user's a troll to me.
Anyway, back to the topic ("Why are Israelis/Jewish people standoffish?")
I'll tell you my view : first off - I'm an Ashkenazi left-wing atheist Israeli. There are too many opinions and subcultures in the jewish world that I think generalizing it to Israelis/Jewish is too big a step.
The only true unity I think we have is being born jewish, and thus see ourselves as some sort of an extended family - an ethnicity.
Just as an Italian will rather live among Italians rather than among Dutch people. He doesn't hate the Dutch, but feels home with Italians.

I see nothing wrong with that.

The problem lies in the (rational) fear of another holocaust. In the text for passover, we yearly say "...in every generation men rise against us to destroy us..." (and ofcourse god saves us, but that's not the point).
We have got only one (very small) place to call home,

I also know that, but I disagree with the use of this politically. The Palestinians can also claim the exact same thing: they were driven out of their homes in 1948, lost 80% of what was their home and fear about not even getting the 20% left. they have got a place even smaller than that of the Israeli

and we know that most of the arab world was truely educated to hate us in the name of their country and religion.

That is not completley wrong, I do agree with you. However, it is not surprising for many reasons:
1. Israel and the Arab world are in conflict since 1948
2. the same can also be said about many Israeli, or should I remind you about what Mommy Sharon was telling her son about the Arabs? Here is another one for you boogaboo: ever wondered why there is not a single arab in the Righteous among the nations at Yad Vashem? After all many parts of the Arab world world were directly or indirectly under Nazi rule (The Maghreb was through the Vichy Regime for example), those places had a significant jewish population and almost none was sent to Aushwitz.
So the "The other side are barbarians" is taught in Tel Aviv as it is in Ramallah. And I'm not even bringing the case of Israel Beitounou here

the actual mutual hatred won't go without a peace agreement like in any other conflict. My wife's grand mother still hate the Germans to this very day because of WW II

I was happier if this was not the case, but as it is, some nations and non-nations (hamas in Gaza, for example) call to destroy Israel. Not for peace, not for an agreement.

Hamas are scum but Israel Beitunu “peace plan” isn't better. How do you think a Palestinian react to the “transfer” idea of Mr Liebermann?

The western world has mostly shown his lack of desire to assist Israel, since countries like Turkey and Iran impact the EU and the US more than Israel. There is no competition there.

That is just nonsense. You know it, well everyone knows it, there are no allies above Israel from a US point view point. It is not even a matter of “political” lobbies or the like. The US people are “mystically” connected to Israel and its people. Concerning Europe, the relation is less “evident” but it is still very strong for two reasons:
1. The guilt still felt towards the Jews because of the Shoah
2. The “Islamization” of the Palestinians cause. Islam is the “least” trendy thing in Europe nowdays, and supporting any cause related to Fundamuntalist Islam is just the least thing one want to do in Europe. The Palestinians would have tremendous support if they go back to the FPLP days ;-)

When a jewish person abroad hears something bad about Israel, it is mostly fears that from some little spark, nearly half of the jewish population on earth (Israel) could be extinct. Again.
I can relate to that. But it does not mean I don't criticize my government.
Just like some Americans must have felt with Bush I feel with our set of clowns.
That still doesn't mean the USA should be nuked for Guantanamo. Yes mistake, we're human, what'd'ya expect?

Nothing to add to that.

=========== My CRITICism ==============
criticizing Israel 1:
Israel should devise a peace plan with the americans and force the PA into a state or unilaterally declare a palestinian state on the other side of the wall.

Well if the peace plan looks like the Geneva initiative than AMEN, the sooner the better.

criticizing Israel 2:
More than criticizing Israel, I was quite happy that I heard that the civilian siege over Gaza was lifted, but the military one remains under some treaty that 30 countries agree on.
It was wrong not to do so beforehand, and although the timing is awful, I'm glad we did it.
Now the people in Gaza may have no alternative but to blame their own organization, Hammas, for keeping most of the aid money and preventing them normal lives.

All this is just “managing” a “warm” war (not cold neither hot, a situation like the one in Israel, WB and Gaza today: no open conflict but no peace neither) and not trying to implement peace. The longer you manage a “warm” war, the “hotter” it gets, it creates more hatred, more deaths and more violence and puts peace yard farther.

Criticism of the UN:
However, I have some criticism of the UN, who offers no solution for getting the red cross to our captured soldier in Gaza, nor to rockets on Israeli civilians, but complains whenever we fight back in any way against the attackers.

Oh sure, but my friend Abu Karam from Ramallah also complains about the UN not finding a solution for to improve conditions in Israeli prisons remove the check points, the embargo etc… no solutions will come from the UN. The UN are there to give an international stamps on agreements concluded between the different parties and the “great powers”. We all know it, don’t we?

 

[ParkCungHee]

True. My bad. I proved a direct genetic connection to Israelites, but not admixture.
Let's negate it completely, since this area I know quite good..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

Uh-huh...you know by your definition I'm very closely related to royalty.

 

[BurnEmDown]

An interesting fact: Israel will soon remove all food restrictions regarding the blockade. Instead of having a list of allowed items, Israel will propose a list of banned items, which will only contain weapons or materials which will help acquire weapons or things which might be somehow related to weapons. This means that all food restrictions are gone: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907978,00.html

Of course, somehow, this was yet to be posted on CFCOT. One might think that people here just don't care enough that the Gazan people can now eat whatever they want, or do almost whatever they couldn't do in the last 4 years.

Edit: Oops, seems boogaboo just posted it half an hour ago. Regardless, this happened 4 days ago and nobody bothered to publish it, maybe nobody has even heard of this.

 

[ParkCungHee]

An interesting fact: Israel will soon remove all food restrictions regarding the blockade. Instead of having a list of allowed items, Israel will propose a list of banned items, which will only contain weapons or materials which will help acquire weapons or things which might be somehow related to weapons. This means that all food restrictions are gone: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907978,00.html

Of course, somehow, this was yet to be posted on CFCOT. One might think that people here just don't care enough that the Gazan people can now eat whatever they want, or do almost whatever they couldn't do in the last 4 years.

Edit: Oops, seems boogaboo just posted it half an hour ago. Regardless, this happened 4 days ago and nobody bothered to publish it, maybe nobody has even heard of this.

What does it matter? Even if we are all aware of this this would be an exception to the rule, and to be disregarded.

 

[boogaboo]

Uh-huh...you know by your definition I'm very closely related to royalty.

You do? Congratulations
But royalty isn't an ethnic group AFAIK.

I also know that, but I disagree with the use of this politically. The Palestinians can also claim the exact same thing: they were driven out of their homes in 1948, lost 80% of what was their home and fear about not even getting the 20% left. they have got a place even smaller than that of the Israeli

I'm not advocating the political usage of the holocaust or other atrocities politically, I'm just explaining why we fear for Israel.
And the comparison you gave is somewhat true, but remember that Palestinians never viewed themselves as a nation or even an ethnic group before 48.
They were muslim arabs, many saw themselves as Jodanians, some Egyptians, all under British rule. In general 1948 is Britain's fault
So, Palestinians DO have many countries that they can melt into. Ethnically.
Also, remember that many jews were expelled from arab states from 48 onwards, so that is a tie.
I notice that we recently have much less trouble with the whole west bank than we do in Gaza.
I'm all for the creation of a Palestinian state. Now convince the leaders..

the actual mutual hatred won't go without a peace agreement like in any other conflict. My wife's grand mother still hate the Germans to this very day because of WW II

True. I hope someone pushes both sides to a deal.
I still think demonization is far greater on many arab nations.
We have our rasists and smooth talkers. I know.

Hamas are scum but Israel Beitunu “peace plan” isn't better. How do you think a Palestinian react to the “transfer” idea of Mr Liebermann?

Mr Liberman isn't Hamas, but he's certainly not far.
However, whereas Hamas won the elections in Gaza, Liberman got 15 mandates (of 120), like many far-right parties in the EU.

About the "transfer" idea, I'll say it's a bad idea, because it's impracticallity mostly, and of course it will be rejected by the PA.
But it is not entirely unfair - The PA want us to remove more than 100,000 settlers from their territory. Liberman claims he want to "return" the same amount of Palestinians from Israel proper (not everyone fled in 48 ).
I'm not saying I support his POV, far from it, but that it is not as "evil" as it is usually remarked on. Still, he's a fascist to me, and he's not prime minister

That is just nonsense.

I accept... that was not correct of me.
but sometimes it does feel like the whole world is against us, and even the US shuts it's mouth.