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Why are lakes so bad?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Archon_Wing, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Aka water tiles are terrible, part 420.

    People meme on coast but at least you can have boats. And you can boost sailing. You can explore.

    Lake tiles have all the disadvantage of water tiles and you can't even improve them easily. All for 2 housing which doesn't matter because you have no food.

    Honestly lakes are the only thing I reroll.
    Tundra has aurora and artemis, desert has pyramids, folklore, and petra. Lakes have that silly wonder and Polders except the Dutch want rivers to begin with.

    I gather that people didn't live off the ocean but lakes clearly had more to eat than that...
     
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  2. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I'd never really thought about it before, but yeah, lakes suck.

    Tundra and Desert Cities definitely don't suck. Leaving aside their various specialised wonders and pantheons, they are usually where you find hard to get resources, and can end up with fairly good production with IZs and lumber-mills or whatever[1] (although it can be hard to get those cities to grow). Coastal Cities are... problematic, but can be made to work (they're not bad so much as they're just sub-optimal).

    Lake Cities can be kinda rubbish. The lake tiles are obviously rubbish. You really can't do much with them either - you don't want to put Harbours in them, because you end up with landlocked Great Admirals; bit weird putting Liang fisheries in them etc. You can put the Water Entertainment Complex in them, which is great because that has a 9 tile range and Lake Cities can be more centrally located, but who wants to kill themselves to build an Entertainment Complex that doesn't let you build Colosseum?? The real kicker is that lakes don't provide adjacencies - no adjacencies for Commercial Hubs, no adjacencies for those river based pantheons or civ abilities, no adjacencies for watermills.

    Of course, Lake Cities will have other land tiles, usually more than Coastal Cities, and those land tiles can be good. And Lakes give Freshwater. You can also sometimes get a good situation where you can build next to the Lake for freshwater, but you have Rivers nearby so building on the Lake lets you maximise access to those rivers which is awesome.

    But, yeah. Lakes suck. It's not exactly at the top of my list of "stuff FXS need to sort out", but they do kinda suck.

    Except for the Dutch. The Dutch flipping love lakes.

    [1] Can FXS please give Commercial Hubs +2 for Oasis, or have the Market boost Oasis yields? Come on guys!
     
  3. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Oasis are kinda nice; though ironically more for desert cities. Yea, the nice lake out there is less survivable than the desert....
     
  4. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    The worst is closed Bay, Lake have related wonders, however when you face a closed Bay you suffer every disadvantages of being coastal and cannot explore (since it is a closed Bay that is not connected to the whole Ocean system)
     
  5. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Just increase coastal tile food yields from 1 to 2. Makes a pretty significant difference.
     
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  6. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    I was thinking about this recently - the CH has a pretty bad mix of adjacencies, since it's literally just River or harbor or both.
    They should really add in oasis, and perhaps Canals. Since gold is 2:1 with other yields, the CH really gets the shaft on adj.

    In the current state of balance, coast being low production, low food, is just so punishing.
    I think lakes should yield more food base. Right now they are 1:c5food: 1:c5gold:. They could be 2:c5food:1:c5gold:. Then with a lighthouse they decidedly don't suck as much. They also don't get fertility from volcanoes, which gimps the tiles more.
    I cannot recall if you can put fisheries in them or not. But they do have the niche use of being a spot to build water parks in the middle of a continent. Gotta get those amenities up!
     
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  7. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    You can build Fisheries on them.

    And yes, Water Parks in 1 tile lakes is a minor gripe of mine, but I accept it because it makes some use of an otherwise fairly bad tile. It does provide fresh water also, which can be nice, but less relevant than in earlier games, because rivers are generally easy to find.
     
  8. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Oh right, inland bays are even worse.

    I've been outmemed. /concedes
     
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  9. MonkeyPaw

    MonkeyPaw Chieftain

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    Lakeside tiles should get +2 appeal instead of +1.

    I'd also like to see a Campground improvement, for forest titles next to a lake.
     
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  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    but help other districts and do get traders. Harbour’s suffer worse.

    I agree lakes are poor but will say that a small lake can do well with moai.
    Large lakes/inland seas benefit from fisheries and without fisheries I would have struggled to get 10 cities to size 30 in a game. They can be food monsters and an inland harbour is just fine as long as the city is next to the lake. I have had a +10 harbour in a 1 tile lake. The only time I managed to get +30 production/gold from a shipyard.
    ... they still suck
     
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  11. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Yay! A thread dedicated to lake-suck awareness! I'm glad I didn't have to be the one to start it.

    A couple things I think would help with lakes:
    1. Let lakes have appeal, and let them contribute to a national-park diamond. Total no-brainer. This gives them utility on-par with mountains for the park game.
    2. Give lakes some pantheon love. How about a pantheon where lakes tiles grant adjacency bonuses *and* holy sites can be built on lake tiles? Kinda need the latter, because without it you wouldn't be able to get much out of the former. Barring that, the existing River Goddess pantheon could roll in lakes to the +2 housing/amenities bonus.
     
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  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I always remember my first Moai fairy ring, shame they have been nerfed a little so they would only make 3 culture each, still, it is a reason I can find at the bottom of the barrel.
    BTW, why can't we have lakeside resorts? and make it that if you have more resorts than water tiles the lake turns a yellowish brown color.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
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  13. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    #FiraxisHatesWater
     
  14. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I'm actually playing a Victoria England game right now where I started on a lake. I probably should have rerolled, but I already rerolled an earlier map, and I don't want to continuously be rerolling. Though in hindsight I should of, not because of the lake by my capital, but because of the way the continents line up. Really can't take advantage of off continent stuff really, I finally got 1 off continent city, but it's a late city, so will never be that great.

    Back to the lakes, they are pretty bad. I've been trying to keep Auckland. I didn't prioritize Huey, and the AI already built that. So I can't do anything with my lake tiles until I either get a promotion for Liang, or with the late techs. Honestly it's not a high priority for me. I'll try to keep Auckland, but the AI is gunning for them too. Luckily my lake wasn't too big. I have a couple other cities by lakes too, but they are fairly small. I like small lakes for the fresh water, but the lack of a river for water mill sucks.

    And yeah, a seafaring civ starting on a lake pretty much sucks.
     
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  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    England start quite often without even a lake to practice in.
    Should have taken fisheries, with Auckland.
    Get a spy and kill their envoys, it’s the simple way, you may lose it for a bit but when it’s back it burns bright with fisheries.
     
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  16. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    clear the lands by those moai and put moai there too. The adjacency piles up.
     
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  17. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    Either make lakes always treated the same as coast or truly make them distinct. Similar to how mountains count as a land tile for somethings but not others, just need consistency.
    The resorts thing would really make them good, or the other suggestion of a big +appeal.

    I didn't mean the CH was bad as a district, just that if you look at what it can get adjacency from, without harbors, (land cities are pretty typical in civ games) it's literally +2 for river or not. It doesn't stack (I think it should stack, +2 for each separate named river it touches. Tigris & Euphrates 1-2 punch!) and it ends up being so binary. And for impact, if you don't have harbor triangles, +2 gold is roughly +1 on another district. It just seems like it should have more ways to play around with it, even if that doesn't necessarily make it strong.
     
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  18. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I did end up building fisheries. London is getting 3 f, 2 production, and 1 gold for fisheries (without Liang in it as she's building fisheries elsewhere) and with Auckland of course. My spies haven't had much luck knocking others down, but I didn't send in my highly promoted spy, at least he wasn't killed (just a mission fail). 3f,2p,1g isn't too bad, but with things like volcanos in the game, it's easy to surpass those yields on land tiles.

    For the record London started on a 4 tile lake. My RND took up 1, and fisheries in the other 3. At least I can build RND's, but generally you aren't likely to get over +2 with lakes.
     
  19. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    Lake tiles should allow a water mill
     
  20. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis Prince

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    Would be nice too if they could be the only improvement you could build in national parks.
     
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