why are nukes always so weak?

There was a lot of propaganda during the Cold War about how "scary" nuclear bombs were and how they could destroy the entire United States or the Soviet Union, but that's not true. Yes, nuclear bombs could have killed a lot of people in the really populated cities like New York and Moscow, but overall it would take a LOT of nuclear bombs to affect an entire country the size of either USA or USSR, and especially a LOT for either side to "destroy" the other - not just a handful as they made it sound like.

The thing is that during the cold war, the USSR and USA built up their arsenals to have thousands of nukes. Although not every square inch of either country would be in the blast radius of even that number, the destruction on that scale would effectively destroy both countries. In addition, the smoke and soot thrown up into the atmosphere by the thousands of firestorms ignited by all those nukes would start a "nuclear winter" that would kill off most of the survivors in the countryside.

It's not that the 1-MT warhead with your city's name on it was going to kill your country (although a couple of million casualties wouldn't be something to easily shrug off), it was the specter of having the largest 500 cities or so triple-nuked plus all major infrastructure, political, and military nodes nuked at the same time that would leave your country effectively no longer in existence.

My idea for Civ-nukes is that after a certain number, all victory conditions except space be disabled, and a time limit put on how long you have to launch your spaceship. If no one can launch by that time, everybody looses. :(
 
(...), and a time limit put on how long you have to launch your spaceship. If no one can launch by that time, everybody looses. :(

Precisely my point , nukes = extinction . :eek:
 
Nukes = extinction pretty much sums it up. But in game it doesnt, I have played games where each side steadily nuked each other 3-5 times each turn forever. I nuke and advance, they nuke and retake. The front line cities had been bombed 5+ times, then there are the home cities nuked repeatedly. Build a nuke bunker, and few farms, pop comes back and your golden. Nuclear war and I can still grow pop faster then can draft? Crack the whip to get critical buildings back? Nukes are seriously underpowered. To qoute myself, nukes should be awesome, epic, end of the world weapons. Not overpowered cruise missiles to be shot off whenever the urge comes on. Yet in every game they arent. Fire off another dozen...
 
Use of nukes should be like retiring, then they could be more powerful.
Their use would be like capitulation in real life and for eveyone involved, so i would never consider games "won" where i used them first ;)
 
Nukes = extinction pretty much sums it up. But in game it doesnt, I have played games where each side steadily nuked each other 3-5 times each turn forever. I nuke and advance, they nuke and retake. The front line cities had been bombed 5+ times, then there are the home cities nuked repeatedly. Build a nuke bunker, and few farms, pop comes back and your golden. Nuclear war and I can still grow pop faster then can draft? Crack the whip to get critical buildings back? Nukes are seriously underpowered. To qoute myself, nukes should be awesome, epic, end of the world weapons. Not overpowered cruise missiles to be shot off whenever the urge comes on. Yet in every game they arent. Fire off another dozen...

I strongly disagree. It could be argued that single ICBM's are weaker than in real life due to balance reasons. But a lasting nuclear war will eventually devastate the entire world.

One of my most epic multiplayer games was a nuclear war in which I teamed up with my neighbour towards the end against a guy who had more than twice our points combined. By working together econimically and focusing on different tech lines, my ally was able to get to nukes, while I defended us with ground troops. A nuclear war began, which lasted for many dozen (perhaps over 100) turns. We both stopped research and I regularly passed him all my gold for him to buy new nukes. I won't go into the details of the war, I could easily write many pages. The other guy's land was huge, and so was his military. Very early, our cities had to be left defenseless, each unit built scrambled forward to the remains of a front line, to desperately try to gain some time against his armies. Through the constant nuking of his cities and troops, and occasional invasions with infantry, knights(!) and galleons, we were slowly but surely able to absorb his attacks and weaken him, and eventually got the upper hand.
But at what cost! At the end of the war, when our enemy finally resigned, basically the entire world was a desert. Nuclear fallout covered the land. Our once thriving megacities had been reduced to pop 2-4. Production had become more or less meaningless long ago, and buying an occasional unit was the only way to go, which our economies, though totally broken together, still provided just enough income to do. If I ever had something resembling a "total war" in Civ, it was in this game.

To sum up, the devastating effect of a nuclear war is not just the destruction caused by the nukes themselves. The resulting global warming is the true crux, which has much larger and lasting effects than the initial damage. These two factors combined, I don't believe nukes could ever be considered too weak.
 
I think it's for balance reasons; because the game is turn-based, if there are enough nukes, the first person to launch wins, no matter what. This allows the nuked civ's nukes to survive to renuke the nuker in revenge for the nuking.

EDIT: Ninja'd

But I guess that the "end of the Wordl nuke" and balance cna go toghter by using a system similar to the one used in Rise of Nation : you can launch a definite number of nukes, before messing too much the wordl and lose.
 
Sending nukes to destroy a whole nation and their citizen is possible, but not likely to happen. lets think, if x and y both have nukes. what reason does each have to use them? they have nukes are a mean for deterrent. now, should x and y both get into a war, and lets say x is losing. would x send nukes at y? well, x knows y has nukes, and if x send, y might send back, then its mutual assured destruction. then, as far as x is concern, they lose. since they will die. if x does not send nukes, they will lose too. then it becomes illogical for them to send nukes, since they will lose in both case. what happens to y has nothing to do with x, because x can not improve their situation. but should x send nukes, then the dilemma falls down to y. should y send nuke back? if y does, then y lose and x lose, both lose. if y doesn't then y lose. since both case involve y losing, then from their perspective, its once again irrational for them to send nuke back. now comes the real question, since it is illogical for both to blow each other up, since blowing up the other does not benefit neither. why have nukes? then again, if one has nuke and the other doesn't the one with nukes will have more levage. but when both parties have nuke, it becomes a, i wouldn't wanna use it contest. is a funny idea :)
 
I honestly don't get the point of tactical nukes. Sure, they have a 50% interception evasion chance, but you can only launch them within a range of about 50 squares? And they do less damage than normal nukes, which can't even destroy a flimsy little city? AND they can still be intercepted, just less likely? If I want to nuke someone, which I usually don't because it's a waste of time, I don't want to build a nuke in the cities near the front lines, because in those cities not only can they be nuked, destroying my newly made nuke, but they can also be captured quickest by enemy marines or tanks.
 
Back in the days of board games, I had a friend that I played strategic games with. If he was loosing, he would say "and then god destroyed the world" and dump the game board. That did not make him the winner, it made him a sore loser. If nukes in CIV worked like they do in the real world, using them would make you just like my old friend: a sore loser.
 
... The largest detonated Hydrogen bomb was Russian Tsar ~50 MT and there are no greater payloads in any arsenal on Earth today so 100MT is science fiction ;)
...

This is misleading as the Tsar is designed to produce 100MT but was tested at 50MT using lead instead of depleted uranium in order to allow the crew to be outside the killzone.

This also ignores modern multiple warhead ICBMs which produce much wider killzones with smaller MT warheads.

Still, I cannot imagine any sane person actually using these on a modern population outside of a game.
 
I would like to add to the reality factor of nukes:
- a detonation of any SINGLE 100MT nuke will create a thermal wave that will cause a spontaneous combustion of ALL the OXYGEN in the atmosphere - so it doesn't matter whom you nuke - everyone will die.
This was mathematically proven a while ago.
This is why Russian got "scared" and reduced Tsar Bomb payload by half.

and of course the fall out effects from any "small" modern nuke will far outlast the damage done by the initial blast. Anyone who didn't die right away but was exposed - will die slowly and horribly, but even if he lives, his/her children will most likely carry hideous genetic mutations.

The Chernobyl didn't even exploded (at least not like a nuke), yet there is no normal human live is still possible within 50km radius, and the half the Europe was showered with load of radiation through rain/wind and underground water source, and its effects can still be found today (almost 30 years later) as far as Germany.

the nukes in Civ4 are more of Hiroshima type nukes, they kill but they do not create the devastation effect like modern nuke can. This is of course for balance reasons. Otherwise entire game would become a race to the first nuke.
 
I honestly don't get the point of tactical nukes. Sure, they have a 50% interception evasion chance, but you can only launch them within a range of about 50 squares? And they do less damage than normal nukes, which can't even destroy a flimsy little city? AND they can still be intercepted, just less likely? If I want to nuke someone, which I usually don't because it's a waste of time, I don't want to build a nuke in the cities near the front lines, because in those cities not only can they be nuked, destroying my newly made nuke, but they can also be captured quickest by enemy marines or tanks.
A few points:
1) Tac nukes do the same damage as ICBMs.
2) Their range is 5 tiles (biggest restriction).
3) You can build them in a city far from the front and then move them to a boarder city (launch next turn).
4) They cost half the :hammers: of ICBMs.
5) I see them more as a waste of cities rather than a waste of time. Nukes will get you to victory fast (if you don't win before they're available), but you'll rule a wasteland.
 
Civ isn't supposed to be realistic. Why does it take years for tanks to airlift from one continent to another when in real life an airlift takes days? Why can't desert cities import food? Why do some corporations cost you money? Nukes are fine from game balance perspective.
 
Back to Game Balance - a Nuke on a SOD is much more deadly than nuking a city. Kill the enemy"s SOD and your counterattack can win the war. A partially ruined city is just that.
 
I would like to add to the reality factor of nukes:
- a detonation of any SINGLE 100MT nuke will create a thermal wave that will cause a spontaneous combustion of ALL the OXYGEN in the atmosphere...
Eh? What? What are you proposing, nitrous oxides? "Thermal wave"? Got any links where this idea is explained? :crazyeye:
 
Eh? What? What are you proposing, nitrous oxides? "Thermal wave"? Got any links where this idea is explained? :crazyeye:

Just like there is a minimal critical mass needed for uranium/plutonium to go nuclear, there is a similar critical limit reached when exploding bomb creates a gigantic "fireball". When you go into 100mt range this "fireball" becomes self-sustaining and ever-expanding, it will spread across earth atmosphere in minutes, effectively consuming all the oxygen and hydrogen in a continuous burning reaction similar to that of the Sun. It will literally "set the planet on fire".

Russian scientist have feared that something like that MAY happen, that's why test load was lowered. When they collected the data after the detonation, the theory became certainty.

I will send in the link from the "reliable" source when I find it again.
 
Yeah sounds like utter nonsense to me, else this would have happened to the planet many times before through volcanic eruptions, and especially asteroid impacts. Besides theres nowhere near enough Hydrogen in the atmosphere to burn all, or even much of the Oxygen

ehem, except volcanic eruptions and asteroid impacts are not nuclear detonations at its core...
 
ehem, except volcanic eruptions and asteroid impacts are not nuclear detonations at its core...
The only meaningful distinction between the 2 in this context is that nuclear reactions release free neutrons, now unless you believe the atmosphere is made up of largely fissile materials then we shouldn't have a problem with that!

Fusion relies on extreme temperatures and pressures, exactly the things that asteroids can create, hence why the much larger energy releases of asteroids are relevant.

The primary reason the bomb wasn't detonated at 100mt was to reduce the fallout.
 
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