[GS] Why are people saying that tier 3 buildings are a waste of production?

[Atlas627]

Ever since they removed aura stacking, players just build one or two factory/power plant to cover everything, and the rest of the IZs sit empty. It's a sad state of affairs because a factory can be built and provide absolutely no benefit whatsoever beyond the +1 GE point.

Factories always give their production to the city they are built in. The rule is each city can only get the benefit from one *aura* of the same building. So 2 cities each with a Factory will each get the benefit of both themselves and the other's aura. If you add a third city it will only get the benefit of 1 of the 2 auras.

 

[Sostratus]

Factories always give their production to the city they are built in. The rule is each city can only get the benefit from one *aura* of the same building. So 2 cities each with a Factory will each get the benefit of both themselves and the other's aura. If you add a third city it will only get the benefit of 1 of the 2 auras.

This is not true (unless you use james watt.)
Factories have a local yield and an aura yield. The highest number of [local, aura, any external auras] gets used.
I wish it worked this way. Build a city with two factories covering it and hover over the production yield: it will clearly show just one factory contributing. If you get magnus' stacking promotion then you can count up and see there's no double counting of that city's local yield and local aura yield.
If you use Nikola tesla you'll be able to see an external factory aura overpower your local one, not add to it. James Watt functions oddly because he gives +2 to the factory's local yield only. This means you can see a factory in city X show you +7 production, but if you check the neighboring city Y without a factory but covered by the aura of X, it will only show +5 production form factory.
Tesla adds +2 to both the local and aura effect. This means that if you get both watt and tesla, the city with tesla will show +9 from factory but will only be radiating a +7 aura.

 

[Cagarustus]

Those who support not building tier 3 buildings in favour of projects, can you do the math? And what’s this about city states granting additional yields to tier 1 buildings? I’ve played almost 1000 hours of civ and I’ve never noticed this.

Just to show how much of a noob player I am.

 

[leandrombraz]

Those who support not building tier 3 buildings in favour of projects, can you do the math? And what’s this about city states granting additional yields to tier 1 buildings? I’ve played almost 1000 hours of civ and I’ve never noticed this.

Just to show how much of a noob player I am.

CS bonus works like this:

If you have 1 envoy: You get that CS yield on your capital (2 science, 2 culture, 4 gold, 2 production for buildings or 2 production for units). If ou have 3 envoys, you get more yields on your T1 building of that yield (2 science on library, 4 gold on market and so on). If you have 6 envoys, you get more yields on your T2 buildings (2 science on university, 4 gold on bank and so on). T3 gets nothing from CS.

Edit: Since GS you actually get 2 gold on the market and 2 on the lighthouse from commercial CS IIRC.

 

[Onii-chan]

Those who support not building tier 3 buildings in favour of projects, can you do the math? And what’s this about city states granting additional yields to tier 1 buildings? I’ve played almost 1000 hours of civ and I’ve never noticed this.

Just to show how much of a noob player I am.

Having 3 envoys in a CS gives bonus yields to the tier 1 building in the same district type as the CS (like commerce hubs for mercantile ones, campuses for scientific ones etc), and having 6 envoys does the same for the tier 2 buildings of that type. That is what the icons in the CS menu represent. There is no such bonus available for tier 3 buildings however

 

[Troy Bruckner]

A base library with suzerain bonuses will often produce more research than a research lab and even Universities. It's better to skip tier 2 buildings in most cases and just spit out another settler if there is room for another city.

 

[MisterBoomBoom]

For me, by the time I'm at banks & universities & workshops - I'm usually buying them. For the later stuff, I usually have enough of my military already done so I might as well build tier 3's or continue to spam wonders in targeted cities I have already situated specifically for those purposes. I try to limit my projects as they are such an advantage for the player to continue to spam GP's that it almost isn't fair. Plus- boring -

 

[Atlas627]

This is not true (unless you use james watt.)
Factories have a local yield and an aura yield. The highest number of [local, aura, any external auras] gets used.
I wish it worked this way. Build a city with two factories covering it and hover over the production yield: it will clearly show just one factory contributing. If you get magnus' stacking promotion then you can count up and see there's no double counting of that city's local yield and local aura yield.
If you use Nikola tesla you'll be able to see an external factory aura overpower your local one, not add to it. James Watt functions oddly because he gives +2 to the factory's local yield only. This means you can see a factory in city X show you +7 production, but if you check the neighboring city Y without a factory but covered by the aura of X, it will only show +5 production form factory.
Tesla adds +2 to both the local and aura effect. This means that if you get both watt and tesla, the city with tesla will show +9 from factory but will only be radiating a +7 aura.

Thank you for this. Now I need to go look at it again in-game.

 

[Cagarustus]

This is not true (unless you use james watt.)
Factories have a local yield and an aura yield. The highest number of [local, aura, any external auras] gets used.
I wish it worked this way. Build a city with two factories covering it and hover over the production yield: it will clearly show just one factory contributing. If you get magnus' stacking promotion then you can count up and see there's no double counting of that city's local yield and local aura yield.
If you use Nikola tesla you'll be able to see an external factory aura overpower your local one, not add to it. James Watt functions oddly because he gives +2 to the factory's local yield only. This means you can see a factory in city X show you +7 production, but if you check the neighboring city Y without a factory but covered by the aura of X, it will only show +5 production form factory.
Tesla adds +2 to both the local and aura effect. This means that if you get both watt and tesla, the city with tesla will show +9 from factory but will only be radiating a +7 aura.

So just to clarify: magnus’ bonuses don’t accumulate production bonuses from aura effects of several factories; it just applies the highest bonus?

 

[Sostratus]

So just to clarify: magnus’ bonuses don’t accumulate production bonuses from aura effects of several factories; it just applies the highest bonus?

Magnus allows unlimited aura stacking from factories (and oil/nuke plants.) The post i was responding to was thinking that factory stacked twice. They normally are one and done. The highest one is what gets used for this one application of the factory.
Magnus does have one careful pitfall for james watt users: only the aura itself stacks, and as I mentioned, Watt adds to the local effect. So even though you will see factories giving +7 to their city, the aura is still just +5, and that's what will stack up with magnus. So Instead of 7*whatever you'll get 7+5*whatever.

 

[isau]

Unsure how I feel about it because you can gold-purchase buildings but not projects. I'm not a competitive player though. Maybe there would be better things to purchase with gold.

Regardless, I did mod the Factory to produce x2 its base yield, and it seems pretty comfortable there. Maybe a bit overpowered with the ability to stack bonuses from multiple factories.

 

[Leathaface]

I think with powered cities being a thing now it is worth it to build tier 3 buildings due to the bonuses a powered city gets from one. If you are playing on a higher difficulty and want to win quicker it is worth it.

 

[CultureManiac]

A lot of this discussion also comes from factories before GS... if a factory costs 400 production to make and produces 4 production a turn it is more than just the 100 turns to make the production back, it is what else more valuable could you have done 100 turns earlier.

If the factory only affects one city, then yes. If you place your IZ right and extend that bonus to three other cities then the factory will pay itself back in 25 turns

 

[UWHabs]

CS bonus works like this:

If you have 1 envoy: You get that CS yield on your capital (2 science, 2 culture, 4 gold, 2 production for buildings or 2 production for units). If ou have 3 envoys, you get more yields on your T1 building of that yield (2 science on library, 4 gold on market and so on). If you have 6 envoys, you get more yields on your T2 buildings (2 science on university, 4 gold on bank and so on). T3 gets nothing from CS.

Edit: Since GS you actually get 2 gold on the market and 2 on the lighthouse from commercial CS IIRC.

Still not sure why they don't let city-states give a bonus to T3 buildings at 9 or 10 envoys. Not that hard to make it to that point, and would actually give you another thing to work towards late in the game.

 

[darkace77450]

I think with powered cities being a thing now it is worth it to build tier 3 buildings due to the bonuses a powered city gets from one. If you are playing on a higher difficulty and want to win quicker it is worth it.

That requires building/buying the T3 building and a power plant, which in turn requires building/buying a factory. Jumping through these hoops nets you a ~50% increase from pre-GS T3 building yields, but is also it comes with the downside of increased CO2 output (depending on the type of power you use). I build T3 buildings because I'm a builder at heart and the sight of an empty district irks me, but if I were a min-maxer I would never build T3 buildings.

 

[Mavfin]

It's a civ tradition, since players who finish (science victory) faster are usually players who micromanage and plan ahead better, in previous iterations. Less so in 6 with all the balance issues.

Of course, that's if you find fun in doing everything the fastest, most efficient way. I don't. If I want to do everything as fast as possible, I can go play World of Warcraft and run M+ all day. <Yawn>.

The Civ series is always very much in the eye of the beholder. It's in how *you* enjoy it. There are always competitive types, of course, who reduce it down to 'you must play it this way or you are doing it wrong!!'. If I don't enjoy playing the way you do, or vice versa, that's not wrong, just different.

 

[King of Prussia]

They are not a waste @Greasy Dave they are pointless if you are going to win a victory with a certain amount of turns.

A lot of this discussion also comes from factories before GS... if a factory costs 400 production to make and produces 4 production a turn it is more than just the 100 turns to make the production back, it is what else more valuable could you have done 100 turns earlier.

i get where you are coming from, and agree to an extent, but that isn't the most fair way to look at it. That isn't counting boosts to nearby cities. There is also the issue that when you are building stuff, you tend to slot policies to make those faster, which further boosts the production you get. the more you use those policies to boost production, the sooner it pays off, not only for that city, but others as well. in the longer run, say 30 or so turns you would of probably made up the production between that city and nearby ones when you take advantage of policies.

of course GS kinda threw a wrench into all of that, and all of the other tier 3 buildings with the power requirements.

on a side note, i do think that buildings tend to cost too much production and outside of encampments and world congress, have no boosts to be made faster. even UB aren't made faster, which i think should change. Why should UD be made faster but not UB?

 

[Lily_Lancer]

You can build everything if you finish victory at T312. Even at T212 people can get every building in his first 20 cities easily.

But the issure is that the games ends at T132 or T162 instead of T212 or T312.

I guess efficiency issues do not worth discussion if you finish after T200. Post T200 victories are designed for you to build whatever you like in whatever order, nothing related with efficiency. Just enjoy game.

I got a Deity science victory at T196(Standard Speed) when I first play Civ6, without any previous knowledge. At that time I don't even know what kinds of troops can I have, or what district/building can I build, just an exploration and follow those awful in-game guides. One really shouldn't care about efficiency if he usually finishes after T200.

 

[LKx]

What about in a multiplayer game?
(With the ai is boring anyway, and going for domination is like cheating)

 

[Chocolate Pi]

This topic should not be about whether a right way to play civ exists, or what it should be. The question is if the perfectly ordinary and common game strategy of "build T3 buildings" is on-par with other options. I think it's non-controversial to say we'd all prefer it to be at minimum generally balanced with other options, just like we'd prefer the civs and different districts to be generally balanced, right?

In that case, let's look at the most straight-forward lineup, the Commerce buildings, where we can most directly compare production/purchase costs to their yield.

Note: All building yields can be doubled by respective policies in tall cities with good districts, but this affects the yields of all buildings proportionally. Hence, it does not really alter analysis we make here.

Market:
Cost: 120 production (480 gold)
Benefits:
+3 g/t
+2 g/t per 3-envoy Trade City-State
+1 gpp/t
+1 specialist slot
+1 trade route slot
+1/2 progress towards the Guilds Civic (=77 Cul each for building 2), pivotal in all paths. (ALSO essentially gives progress towards Medeival Faires!)

A 0 City-State Market pays for itself in 160 turns. If built on turn 100 of a 300 turn game, it will yield a net profit of 120 gold and 200 gpp. If you built primarily it for only 50 turns of gpp, you paid 330 gold for the privledge.
A 2 City-State Market pays for itself in 69 turns. If built on turn 100 of a 300 turn game, it will yield a net profit of 920 gold and 200 gpp. If you built it primarily for only 50 turns of gpp, you paid 130 gold for the privledge.
A 4 City-State Market pays for itself in 44 turns. If built on turn 100 of a 300 turn game, it will yield a net profit of 1720 gold and 200 gpp. If you built it primarily for only 50 turns of gpp, you still profitted 70 gold.
All of this is ignoring the elephant in the room: You also get a TRADE ROUTE SLOT, which is a HUGE perk offering large, highly-scaling profit margins and secondary benefits directly applicable to every victory condition.

What a slam dunk. Decent payoff, amazing with city states and hitting 3 envoys is trivial. Around for the entire game. Progress towards two key, unavoidable Civic. And, of course, the invaluable Trade Route slot: a reward on par with a lesser wonder or great person.


Bank:
Cost: 290 production (1160 gold)
Benefits:
+5 g/t
+2 g/t per 6-envoy Trade City-State
+1 gpp/t
+1 specialist slot
+1/2 progress towards the Economics Tech (=194 Sci each for building 2), which gates Interchangable Parts

A 0 City-State Bank pays for itself in 232 turns. If built on turn 150 of a 300 turn game, it will yield a net profit of -410 gold and 150 gpp. If you built it primarily for only 50 turns of gpp, you paid 910 gold.
A 2 City-State Bank pays for itself in 129 turns. If built on turn 150 of a 300 turn game, it will yield a net profit of 190 gold and 150 gpp. If you built it primarily for only 50 turns of gpp, you paid 710 gold.
A 4 City-State Bank pays for itself in 89 turns. If built on turn 150 of a 300 turn game, it will yield a net profit of 790 gold and 150 gpp. If you built it primarily for only 50 turns of gpp, you paid 510 gold.

Ok, this is... much worse. No trade route, an important but less key boost, and the City States now require a far less trivial 6 envoys. Yet compared to a Market the efficiency is less than 50% for gold, and even less for gpp! It's a long payoff, and without 6-envoy city-states, we might not even make our costs back before the game ends!


Stock Exchange:
Cost: 390 production (1560 gold)
Benefits:
+4 g/t
+7 g/t if powered
+1 gpp/t
+1 specialist slot
+1/3 progress towards the Capitalism Civic (=208 Cul each for building 3), a less important leaf tech

An unpowered Stock Exchange pays for itself in 390 turns. If built on turn 200 of a 300 turn game, it will yield a net profit of -1160 gold and 100 gpp. If you built it primarily for only 50 turns of gpp, you paid 1360 gold.
A powered Stock Exchange pays for itself in 142 turns. If built on turn 200 of a 300 turn game, it will yield a net profit of -460 gold and 100 gpp. If you built it primarily for only 50 turns of gpp, you paid 1010 gold.

Power typically costs some combination of tiles + build charges, power plant production + resources + CO2 output, or hydroelectric dam production. While it's hard to compare, 1 power infrastructure roughly ballparks to 100 production, or 400 gold.
A powered Stock Exchange pays for its true cost in 178 turns. If built on turn 200 of a 300 turn game, it will yield a net profit of -860 gold and 100 gpp. If you built it primarily for only 50 turns of gpp, you paid 1410 gold.


Now this is a train wreck in comparison. It is far less gold and gpp efficient that the Bank, is connected to a far worse boost, and is dependent on power infrastructure. Yet this dubious investment can only be build late game? It is almost certain we will not be getting our investment back before the game ends.




While the Stock Exchange is an especially bad case, all (non-holy) T3 buildings follow similarly unappealing math. Unless you are after the quick Research Lab boost or the Broadcast Tower GW slot + Rock Band bonus, building any of these 3 buildings (And possibly Banks) is simply mathematically incorrect for almost all cities in almost all situations, and those exceptions probably all involve tall Pingala or World Congress building bonuses. There is almost always a cheaper, more efficient investment available--either projects in the short-term, or expanding wider in the long term. Military Academy and Seaport are also overpriced for most situations, but at least require no power, offer a nice +1 Housing, enable special military production options and XP bonuses, and Seaports even add a sweet tile gold bonus that is usually single-handedly more than a powered Stock Exchange! As such, there is still plenty of situations where they are worth considering.

Edit: Airport is also a wild 600 production for +3 a turn. You are really just paying (a steep prmium) for the +XP bonus and airlift ability.

Edit 2: Oh yeah, there's always that CRAZY Dark Age policy. You know the one. If it is on the table, sure--Stock Exchanges are nuts and all bets are off.