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[GS] Why are people saying that tier 3 buildings are a waste of production?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Greasy Dave, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    No winning the game against the AI is not a problem and you hit the nail on the head. That some people need a problem to solve. The problem is how to do it efficiently.
    I have no idea why you are so salty about this.... you can play with factories all you like, no one demands you must not play with factories. Why attack others for how they play.

    Great explanation @Chocolate Pi
     
  2. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Emperor

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    One should care about enjoyment in playing the game I'd say.:p
    I like to win my games and RP and be somewhat efficient nevertheless, so I'm caught between 2 stools. It should be a nobrainer that it's a good idea to build t3 buildings but it isn't.
    How about buffing projects output when the city has t3 buildings? That would give the mathmaticians something to chew on and more incentive to build.
     
    Siptah likes this.
  3. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    Assume you have builders and trees to chop.
    A builder takes 10~15 turns to use up all its charges to chop. (Typically this is 5~7 charges, Assume this is 6)
    Assume a builder cost 260 prod, with +30% policy he cost 200 prod.
    Assume a chop yield 150 prod.
    A builder pays for himself in less than 5 turns, and double the profit in 10~15 turns, much better than the smallest number in the CH (which is 44, requires 3 suzerains of commercial CS)

    As long as you have trees to chop you shall build builders instead of all those useless buildings.
     
  4. Greasy Dave

    Greasy Dave Prince

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    On my phone so just a short couple of comments
    First thanks for all the really good analysis.
    Second my original question was from the perspective of a player who is no expert but who is interested in the way other folks play. No judgement either way. I was genuinely cutious how better players get the tech rate.
    Third the feedback and numbers analysis made by multiple posters are interesting. So thank you
     
  5. Onii-chan

    Onii-chan Prince

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    No that's my point; everyone should be allowed to play just how they want without being told off by others. But I've seen enough times by now how some people are trying to tell others that they're not playing the game "correctly" just because they're not using the most efficient play style, which is not something I endorse
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    And now it is worse. A horseman by T100 can easily pillage a bank for 150 gold. With the raid card, 300 gold.
    Pillage bank, then market then district for 900 gold.
    Pillage a campus with library and Uni for 900 science when your own similar campus produces 9 science per turn.

    The point is if you do not pillage you can have a great fun game playing until T300 building a wonderful empire. The choice to pillage is yours. For the people that like the challenge and puzzle of fast games the pillage seems a bit too strong amd ruins some complex choices.
     
  7. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Chieftain

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    Sadly, the finite number of trees in the world and lack of Magnus clones prevents our true chopping Utopia. It also doesn't help that it *is* damaging your tile yields, tying up policy slots, and is actually dropping in efficiency pretty rapidly as your builders grow successively more expensive.

    Imo it's hard to see these pillage values as anything other than a bug. They are as game-warping as you say.

    Even I, a fairly ruthless optimizer who takes no shame in "playing to win" against weak AI, am not pillaging currently. Like sheesh, at this point why not just open up the tuner and give myself a few thousand gold or sci or whatever?

    Of course play the game however you want, but obviously we want them to fix this nonsense lol.
     
    Meluhhan likes this.
  8. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    So I say "As long as you have trees to chop". To play a game, the first thing is chop every trees, the second thing is to find trees to chop. Capture cities with trees to chop, or settle among trees. At least you shall make all the trees and resources being chopped/harvested, and leave a plain earth. Once you have all of them chopped/harvested, it is hard not to have already won ,actually.
     
  9. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Doesn't playing like that make you feel really sad? Maybe I'm just a sentimentalist, but thinking about how we've treated our own planet, I can't find myself chopping every forest in the game.
     
  10. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    But theres also yield from chopping increasing as the eras go by, number of builder charges ( you assume 5-7 which means after serfdom effectively), builder costs increasing so efficiency wise don't chop before serfdom, except if rushing a wonder or army.
    Personally I have no problem with chopping forests and draining marshes (something that happened/happens pretty extensively in real life) but the balance between various elements is out of whack.
    Chopping is probably about right now, production is underpowered, pillaging OP, and upgrading units too cheap.
     
  11. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    You'll also get your comeuppance when your massive deforestation means you get hit extra hard by CO2 levels starting in the Industrial Era....
     
  12. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    One of the issues with Civ4 buildings is their additional yield didn't pay off with more citizens being productive (say Market is a good example).

    From what I read, to make level 3 buildings productive, their yields should scale based on population in that city (say from 15+?).
    That would put them in line, as Victoria says with different strategies of tall vs. wide.
     
  13. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Chieftain

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    Really, the powered T3 buildings just need to be sexy, and grant some sort of tall bonus one can't get elsewhere. Civ 5 did this with a modest city-wide % boost. You could also do something based on Pop. Or something custom:

    Research Lab boosts Project production significantly, or boosts city-wide GPP.
    Broadcast Center boosts Loyalty Pressure, or allows Rock Bands more bonus sales.
    Stock Exchange provides +1g/t for each luxury resources, or each specialist working in that city.

    There are lots of fun little "capstone" perks you could do.
     
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  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    No, you have finished your game by then.
    Great avatar btw. "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed, but I do say no more than 10 to 20 million killed, tops! Uh, depending on the breeze."
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
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  15. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I think Tier 3 buildings need a buff for even us players that aren’t as fast as @Lily_Lancer .

    A bit more yield, maybe something else like @Chocolate Pi suggests. I’ve made my own suggestions elsewhere too. I’m not fussed really. FXS buffed them once in GS. Hopefully they’re open to having another look.

    But the problem is not just the buildings, is it? It’s that the game is much too fast. So fast, that most things are not worth buying or building and the only sane strategy is chop chop chop.
     
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  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    They sort of slowed down a science victory and also nerfed the chop but then added pillage which sped it up again and opened up other abuses.
    The CV is the same speed but they removed government differences below tier 3 and combined with the pillage, sped things up.

    When I am in an immersive mood I will play to T250 but I still struggle a bit with "What do I do now that is different".. I sort of have to play slower on purpose.
    I have no real issue with the speed of victories, regardless of the speed it is the puzzle which gets you there that is fun. Maps do make a big difference.

    The trading exploit is not good but I do not use it so it does not ruin my game. I'm just happy with the times I get based on how I play.
    If they slowed down the victory conditions it would currently be far better to pillage more than build tier3 buildings even if they were +15.
    If you look at the fastest players they do not put down mines at all, just chop. 1 lumber mill for the eureka.
    They are quite different games but there is nothing wrong with that. To me they just made the game open to more audience.
     
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  17. isau

    isau Deity

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    One thing one to keep in mind is that Production costs are modifiable by policies and governments. Possibly the issue with T3 buildings isn't their base cost, but the lack of policies/governments/abilities that reduce their cost and make them efficient. The buildings are only bad because their Production cost doesn't justify them after policies/governments/abilities are taken into account. There are a few units and districts out there with similar high costs that are still useful because of supplemental support.

    I could see +Production toward T3 buildings as a valid perk for Alliances. Also Alliances could boost the output of the buildings.

    If we're concerned about skyrocketing currencies at end game, it's also possible that T3 buildings could be used maliciously. Perhaps, as markets shifts during the final eras of the game, all players get a cut of a global pool, and players without T3 buildings begin to lose out compared to players with more T3 buildings. This would track with the way real life works. Rich countries are rich in part because they exploit poorer ones.
     
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  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    ... so a stock exchange could add up the values of all CH out there and then distribute that value between the number of stock exchanges in some way.. those with stock exchanges get a value of the total market.... That would be nasty but interesting, too OP but I like the thought of something along those lines.
    Research labs gain a % of research done in other labs around the world?
    Broadcoast centres have been buffed and are OK... or maybe you think not?
    Power stations .. will leave that to the experts.
     
  19. rinelkind

    rinelkind Chieftain

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    Guys I'm a newbie so i usually build everything because i like playing like that, but after reading this thread I want to ask the most experienced players... can you share some "tricks" about what is the most efficient thing to do?
    I mean, chop all trees is one, but what else? You suggest to pick a policy to give builders more turns? And to raise the pillage value? Also how do you handle pillaging, you just pillage the cities you would eventually raze, or even those you actually keep? I usually go for a domination victory (or science, most times it seems faster) and i usually raze the small ones unless they can give access to important resources i cant find anywhere else.
    So yeah, any hints would be very appreciated, thanks!
     
  20. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Thinking more about this, and what would be realistic ("IRL") is that tier 3 buildings require a global market to be truly utilized. I mean, what's the point of cranking out 300.000 cars a year from a single factory is the market is not global?

    What I'd do is tie it to diplomacy in some way (alliance, open borders, world congress).

    Maybe like this:
    - pass UN resoultion for global free trade agreement (+3 production for all factories globally)
    - an economic alliance with a civ (+2 production for factories for both civs)

    Something along these lines.

    OR

    Make each factory build something else (a unique or non-unique resorce) that can be traded in the trade screen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
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