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[GS] Why are people saying that tier 3 buildings are a waste of production?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Greasy Dave, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    @isau To me, you should be buying T3 buildings with gold not hard building them with hammers. Hammers are for ancient empires trying get up their first campus. Gold is for modern advanced empires that are now using PPPs to get important infrastructure up to impress the voters. Bang, Research Lab. Bang, Stock Exchange. So, I don’t really like the idea of production cards for T3s.

    It’s interesting T3s don’t benefit from City States. I’d never really thought about it before. That’s maybe another reason there should be more and stronger policy cards that leverage them. I could also see them having bonus effects, but I’ve never come with any ideas I like.

    Or maybe there should be a World Congress session where you force the AI to build T3 buildings while you project and chop your way to Alpha Centurai...?
     
  2. darkace77450

    darkace77450 King

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    The way I would buff them is twofold:
    1. Make T3 buildings provide .5 of their respective yield per citizen (1 per citizen for gold).
    2. Make specialist slots provide GPP (1 for T1 and 2, and 2 for T3) when worked.

    This offers players a bit more incentive to build these buildings in larger cities, which feels more natural than having them everywhere. This solution probably wouldn't do much for the min-maxers, but nothing short of breaking T3 buildings in an OP way or drastically lengthening the game (a bad move for more casual players, which I imagine outnumber the min-maxers) will.
     
  3. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    T3 buildings should really multiply instead of giving back a flat rate.
     
  4. Deggial

    Deggial Emperor

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    The GP points show up in the evaluation, but are not discussed further.
    GP can not be chopped or pillaged. There are cards that give GP points, but they can easily be outnumbered by GP from buildings.

    What is their worth?
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    They are of some note but not overpoweringly so, especially currently as pillage allows purchase of key ones fairly easily... and you can chop in projects.

    Great writers have huge worth early and a fast CV needs very fast GW so theaters are a special case.

    The problem with regard to T3 buildings is they only provide +1 GPP which is stupid. It should at least have been +3 at least but no, the progression is +1,+1,+1.
    So you build your research lab for the best benefits and maybe you get a GP with +1 science from labs. but you also get +1 GSP
    You then build a Uni with a +2 and +4 Great scientist for them and get +1 GSP again
    So then you hit the expensive research lab.... Is it better to build it, bearing in mind you also have to power the bloody thing.... of do you just run projects with the production instead which also produces the same GSP regardless of the number of buildings.
    Then there is the fact that unless you only have 4 cities (your fault in civ VI) then by the time you hot research labs you really do not need them... you are producing adequate science to win the game without them...people have complained since the start about the end techs going too fast... once again another nail in the coffin and we have banged in quite a few in this thread.

    They really have let Tier 3 buildings down with lack of thought. It really is poor.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
    Deggial likes this.
  6. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Sounds like maybe city projects need to get a bump in the amount of time they take to complete.

    Also, after the Industrial era, introduce a fourth tier of CS relationships that boost yields to districts with T3 buildings.

    And of course, gotta frickin' nerf pillaging (although I don't know if it's really fair to call it a nerf if they just recently overpowered the damn thing).
     
    Fluphen Azine likes this.
  7. ZeroSuitSenpai

    ZeroSuitSenpai Warlord

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    I'd love to see them make specialist citizens more powerful to buff both tall and t3 buildings. Maybe a policy card that boosts yields of districts with 3 specialists assigned to them? Idk.
     
  8. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    It appears to me that you do understand why turn time is an indication of skill or how well you've played.
    You answered those questions inside of this post by stating that the AI is never a problem anyway.

    Some players realize they will never lose so to continue on playing they have to win as fast as possible.
    This keeps them interested in the game and keeps them buying the DLC and playing hours upon hours.

    My rotation has slowed down but for years I did it this way...
    I would play 6 man FFAs till I got bored with that.
    Next I would play 1v1 Multiplayer games.
    Once I got tired of that I would go back to Single Player Deity or GOTM games.
    Get bored with that and start posting about my games.
    At times I would even record and upload my games to keep the party going.
    A few other rotations but you get the idea.
    This kept me addicted for over 20 years.
    I am currently on hiatus trying to learn EU4 but I will be back eventually.
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    So with regard to Campuses specialists are worth it n my view for fast victories and you do see the fast players use them.
    1 specialist for a library, 1 for a uni and ...yes 1 for a laboratory. Why bother with the lab, you have 2 already and each specialist gives 2... maybe it should be 2x tier level... but it is not.

    perfectly said, I find the later game rather boring. Do not get me wrong, if I nerf myself it can be and I do sometimes but if it was not for turn speed I would just not play. This for me is primarily down to the challenge of doing a thing well like in golf. In golf you normally play to beat your old score, not beat someone elses.
    I am not hurting anyone by doing this so why the hate?
    I respect people want to play immersively but struggle with why they are angry at me for chopping trees down. It is not their forest I am in. I guess they are cross because I say I find T3 buildings pointless because I finish before they are of use.... if I played until T400 I would build them!
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
    acluewithout and Fluphen Azine like this.
  10. ZeroSuitSenpai

    ZeroSuitSenpai Warlord

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    Right, letting tier 3 specialists be more powerful than tier 1 not only makes sense (I'd imagine a research scientist might be a more learned citizen than an avid bookworm in the library), but it might be a nice buff to tall play as well (given that tall players are the most likely to deal with t3 buildings from a playstyle standpoint). I feel like a district with all three specialist slots filled in all 3 buildings should get some sort of bonus. Specialists in general are such a neglected part of the game that could be interesting imo. Let me interact with my citizens.
     
  11. Deggial

    Deggial Emperor

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    I agree.

    Or, at least, re-implement GPP from citizen dedicated to work the buildings.
    I have not the slightest idea, why this was removed in Civ6.
    Actually ... could it be that, with the personalized GP in Civ6, there would be too many earned with increased GPP generation? Did Firaxis run short of good (but not OP) GP effects? In Civ5, GP were generic, so an increased number of earned GP didn't harm.

    Anyway, I still belive that GP from specialists should return. And if only for one reason - a reason new to GS:
    With the implementation of the world congress, they added "GPP competitions". Currently, those are very static and passive. If at all, new GPP-producing buildings can be built. But this is slow and a long-term dedication.
    What I really would like to see is the ability to juggle some specialists around as needed; "hire" them during a competition (and deal with the drawback of food-/production-loss) and put them back on the fields/in the mines after the competion was (hopefully) won.

    --

    Edit:
    If my assumpten above is true ... would you guys live with the addition of new (old?), "generic" GP?
    They would add science/production/... boosts like in Civ5 and be "interspersed" inbetween the truely unique (and personalized) GP we have right now.
    With such a change, an increased amount of generated GPP might be possible again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
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  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    @Deggial 7 @ZeroSuitSenpai It is all fine to come up with new ideas but remember I also said a problem is the science tree finishes too fast... if you buff any science you really need to slow down the tree.
     
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  13. Deggial

    Deggial Emperor

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    Absolutely!
    And why not?
     
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  14. UncivilizedGuy

    UncivilizedGuy Civ is brain candy.

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    I haven’t read this entire thread but if you’re doing nothing but spamming units I would consider this to be a major flaw in the game. Large militaries and large empires should be difficult to maintain if the proper infrastructure isn’t constructed or maintained.
     
  15. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    They also need to have their yields nerfed too. The problem with projects is they provide decent yields even when you don't finish them.

    Maybe make it so you only get anything after the project completes.
     
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  16. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    It should be impossible to build or upgrade to modern units without power or at the very least a factory. Are people out in a country stone quarry somewhere, lovingly hand-crafting Jet Fighters? Where are these parts being fabricated and assembled? Yes, things in civ are an approximation, but Civ does have a thing called a factory and that's where things like this are built.

    I think if you demand electricity for modern things that require electricity and we might be getting somewhere.
     
  17. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    I remember back in Civ V when you got Great Person points from working the specialist slots. Even though the yields were subpar, it was usually worth it to get the great person points....

    Meanwhile in Civ VI, most of the specialist slots aren't worth it. Normal tile yields tend to be much better.
     
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  18. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    I actually think the production boosts from factories and power plants are decent enough. Odd that coal plants can afford a much bigger bonus than the others though. I guess that's supposed to balance it against the CO2 emissions, but nuclear's bonus exceeds oil's despite being cleaner (not sure what meltdown maintenance entails).
     
  19. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Well, we have a slew of new techs that come after research labs, but yeah, it proceeds too quickly leading up to that as well.

    Of course, if you can settle unlimited cities, and build campuses in all of them, then science is not subjected to any practical cap, much as GPT can just pile up to the heavens. The answer to slowing down the tree just becomes settle more, pillage more.

    Maybe lose the spaceport as a district and just make it a tier 4 science building.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  20. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    The difference in emissions is so trivial that it's almost always better to use coal plants. Oil is much better used in your military units, and nuke plants, while strong, not only come late and compete with GDRs: Nuclear power doesn't have any kind of generation priority over other sources, so there's no guarantee that you will actually get the low emissions it promises.

    What I don't get is why they made the other plants so weak compared to coal. Did they expect players to generally place terrible IZs? Then the coal plant would be too weak. Did they expect players to only build IZs where they can get good adjacency? Then coal plants would obviously dominate because they get such better bonuses. :confused:
     
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