[NFP] Why are there some barb camps that are unbeatable?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by intellectsucks, Mar 3, 2021.

  1. intellectsucks

    intellectsucks Warlord

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    Working on my second game at Immortal difficulty and I was excited to try a killer Keshig rush as Ghengis Khan, when I ran into this insanity:

    upload_2021-3-3_11-17-50.png

    The scout came from the southwest of my cap on turn 5 after I explored NW. This barb camp has spawned AT LEAST 12 units, killing two of Nalanda's warriors, one of my promoted warriors and one of my promoted slingers. I sent all my units down to try and wipe it out because I didn't want to spend the first 30 turns surrounded by barbs and unable to do anything. How do you prevent this?
     
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  2. Qwan

    Qwan Warlord

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    #1: prevent scouts from finding your city
    #2: if they do find it, prevent them from getting back to the outpost to report

    You can do these by employing some scouts. Their scouts avoid conflict. Their mission is to find cities, report back, and also pillage trade routes, and maybe get in the way of your exploring. Non-scouts are poor at dealing with their scouts, which can move more easily.

    Also, a single range unit helps tremendously against early barbarian spawns. Even a slinger, if you leave it inside your city.

    I don't go after the barbarian outpost until I've defeated the spawn-wave -- I defend. They will waste attacks against a city, which heals. My units heal faster. And the one in the city cannot be attacked. Just don't let them besiege the city, so it doesn't heal. Having units behind the direction of the attack helps with that, especially an archer on a hill. The AI often will go for your units rather than make a concerted attack on a city. Your scouts can lure them away, although that's harder if it's a horse spawn like above. They will also preferentially chase your builder, which you can move in and out of your city to tempt them.

    One other strategy: if there is a city-state near enough to be scouted by barbarians, let the city-state deal with them. You might even use a scout to lure their units to the city-state!
     
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  3. jehtro777

    jehtro777 Chieftain

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    At the point that they spawned as many as they did you'd be better off falling back to your capital. This will first give you a place to rest injured units. Second a barb camp can't level your capital (at least not my experience). So, they will beat on it for a while and kill themselves. They will level a non capital city, though.
     
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  4. walkerjks

    walkerjks King

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    Monument is typically an early build for me. When I find myself getting overwhelmed by a barb camp spawning like crazy or being bracketed by a couple barb camps, I find myself recruiting a hero earlier than I normally would.
     
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  5. intellectsucks

    intellectsucks Warlord

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    Qwan, there was no way for me to get a scout out in time to push the barb scout away. He saw my capital on turn 5 and I had moved once onto the plains hill on turn 1 so my scout wouldn't have been out for 1-2 turns after he saw me. I'm usually pretty decent at using my first two units to push barbs away but it just wasn't an option here.

    To the other point that you both brought up, how do you come back from having to essentially sit still for however many turns it takes to fend off the wave of barbs? I ended up re-rolling because I'm new to immortal and didn't want one of my first games to be a nightmare, but I'd like to know how to deal with this going forward.
     
  6. IsabelBraganca

    IsabelBraganca Warlord

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    I was open with scout and move the warrior around the capital. If I wave like that is coming early in the came, I go with scout-slinger-slinger-settler. The scout will avoid the camp. Inside the capital the warrior will attack the barbarian units and heal as needed. There is no trouble if the health gets to 0, you are safe from losing your capital. Once the first slinger is ready, if you haven't lost the warrior, the units around the capital will be killed fast. By the time you get your settler out, you should be able to buy a builder.
     
  7. jehtro777

    jehtro777 Chieftain

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    You don't really recover per se. It's going to slow you down. I've had plenty of games I just threw in the towel like that on immortal and deity. The worst ones are the ones that just start spewing horseman lol.

    Heroes mode made it way better for players in that regard. Even then it will still slow you down if you didn't intend a domination game to take a domination hero first.

    Look at the picture I shared. The camp spawned right next to my capital and started spewing archers shortly after. It's great and terrible to start near a natural wonder sometimes. Barb camps have an affinity for natural wonders.
     

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  8. Qwan

    Qwan Warlord

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    First, you don't know that, had you not gone after the barbarian outpost, it would have sent two spawns at you. [Actually, two spawns implies two barbarian outposts, but that's besides the point.] You already noted 2 of the city-state Nalanda's warriors were killed. [So it's possible that one outpost scouted you, a different outpost scouted them, again besides the point.] My point is, you could have let Nalanda deal with the barbarians, at least some of them. It has city walls. The AI likes to kill units, likes to pillage tiles and trade routes. If you have none of those, and someone else does, it will go after that someone else.

    However, let's assume a worse situation, where it's just you versus a dozen barbarians of the horse variety. What I do is defend. I use the barbarians to get the boost for Archery and the boost for Bronze Working. I build scouts (how many varies), and use them to tempt and tantalize the barbarians into poor positions, so they get killed, especially by the slinger inside the city. Meanwhile, the scouts get promoted as well.

    Assume 3 tiles have not yet been improved with a builder, for the boost for Craftmanship. After building a slinger and enough scouts, I build a Monument, and go for Craftmanship without the boost. When the Monument finishes, and I'm waiting for Craftmanship, I'll build a builder if I don't have one, after which I store up production towards a settler. (And maybe more scouts, if the ones I have already have the 1st promotion.) The builder can also be used as bait, although one has to be more careful versus horse units. (Note that barbarian horse archers and horsemen have less movement than non-barbarians. So appropriately-promoted scouts can run away.)

    Before the settler finishes, I'll have Craftmanship. Then I run Agoge, building warriors until I know Archery, after which I'll build a couple archers, so eventually I can get the boost for Machinery. After learning Craftmanship, I usually go for Foreign Trade, boosted or not. Again, the Monument makes up the difference for not getting the boost.

    With the next change in Civics, I switch from Agoge to Discipline. With 2 archers and 2+ warriors, I have plenty to handle even two barbarian outposts, and I'll have the scouts ready to find them (or otherwise explore). I won't upgrade the original slinger, partly because I usually give it the garrison promotion (less useful in the field), but mainly because I use it as bait. The spearman in an outpost will come out when it sees the slinger, even if it cannot attack it immediately. Besides, with Discipline, a slinger can take one hit from it. I arrange to take the outpost immediately with another unit. I also switch from Urban Planning to Ilkum, and produce builders (after finishing the settler). I send the builder I have with the settler, maybe after improving 1-2 tiles that increase production (and of course after repairing), and improve other tiles near my capitol with the next builder. Also, I should have finished Bronze Working by then, or shortly, so I'll know where the Iron is (or isn't) when deciding where to settle. An extra benefit of the Monument is more cultural border expansion, so the 2nd builder will have more choices to improve. If my either my capitol or my next city is coastal, I may also use a builder with 1 charge remaining to scout the coastline.

    After Foreign Trade, I go for Military Tradition, stop 1 turn way from finishing after boosted, then go for Early Empire, stop 1 turn away from finishing after boosted, then go for State Workforce. Before I get 1 turn away from finishing that after boosted, I should have taken out a barbarian outpost, so I'll finish Military Tradition, switch back to Urban Planning, and start producing my 1st district, maybe an Encampment, since I know Bronze Working.

    If there's more than one barbarian outpost, I don't have to take out the others. One consideration is if I know whether or not I need the Era score for a Golden Age. When clearing an outpost this early, a turn later another spawns, and sometimes I prefer to leave the one I know about, and control its scouting, than endure a new one. Plus, if it's spawned horse units, there are horses near it. The AI doesn't like to settle near a barbarian outpost, while if I settle near it, then clearing the outpost gives an extra +1 to the Era score.

    Finally, as @IsabelBraganca said, I don't think barbarians can take a capitol. I think I've seen it not take mine even at zero health, and I think I've seen it not take that of an AI even at zero health. I think the reason is that barbarians raze cities, and they cannot raze capitols. In which case, maybe then slinger then monument then scouts.

    P.S. I forgot to add, once I know Bronze Working, particularly in this situation, I like to build one spearman, while running Agoge. Not only does it get combat bonus against these horse units, but I can get the boost for killing a unit with a spearman.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  9. intellectsucks

    intellectsucks Warlord

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    Great advice! It almost makes me wish I hadn't re-rolled the map so I could try it out!! I was under the impression that when a scout finds you, the barb spawns target the city that the scout spotted. Is that incorrect?
     
  10. gimper42

    gimper42 Warlord

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    Yeah, that is incorrect... I think. The barbarian outpost is going to remain in it's base state until a scout physically returns to a hex adjacent to the outpost -after- the scout has spotted a city. If that scout never returns after spotting a city, the outpost is none the wiser. Pushing the scout away from the outpost after it finds your city is a very good strategy. If that push is towards city-states, so much the better. Even if just buys you a little time, it's going to be better than getting swarmed like that.
     
  11. Qwan

    Qwan Warlord

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    When the barbarian scout finds a city, and reports back, I think the spawn does target that city. If you have sufficient intelligence (access level) on another civ, there's a gossip message when they are subject to a barbarian horde. I'm pretty sure I've seen a barbarian outpost between myself and another civ or city-state, spawn and go for one of us, but not the other. But I don't think the spawned units will bypass any units belonging to another civ or city-state -- I think they will still attack them. And I think I've lured barbarian spawned units into chasing my units towards a city-state. But I could be wrong about either or both.

    It's too bad you only posted a snapshot of that game. Had you posted a saved game, not only could you have gone back to it and tried different things, but others of us could have attempted to salvage it as well, and investigated the behavior of the spawn to get more certainty. I'll try to remember to do so for the latter, when I next deal with such barbarian spawning.
     

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