Why are Western civs so seldomly scientific?

[Arent11]

I always felt it was weird that Western civs like Greece, England, Germany, France etc. are so rarely scientific? I mean, industrialization, rationalism, empiricism, Enlightenment etc. took place there?

Ok, I just noticed that Germany was scientific in civ 3.

Correction: In Civ 4 the English, German, Greek, Americans, Russians were all philosophical, which gave cheaper universities. Civ 4 FTW

Do you think these civs should more often be scientific?

 

[Leyrann]

I guess Europe's colonial activities kind of overshadow their scientific achievements, as they largely overlapped in time.

You could give scientific bonuses to England/Great Britain for their industrialization, the many great scientists that lived there in the 19th century, et cetera... or you could focus on their colonial conquests and unmatched naval power, which were present during the same period. And the latter is arguably more unique.

Same with other countries.

Also, I suppose the industrial revolution in Europe was somewhat of a shared achievement, as opposed to a single civilization progressing beyond it's neighbors technologically.

 

[Atlas627]

Well arguably, in Civ terms, Industrialization is economic and Rationalism/Empiricism/Enlightenment are all cultural. I think part of the problem is that Civ as a series presents technology as part of the inevitable march of progress, so all Civs are really equally "scientific". I'm also not sure how you'd identify which European Civs had particularly scientific traits anyway, as they shared a lot of the progress.

 

[Arent11]

I guess Europe's colonial activities kind of overshadow their scientific achievements, as they largely overlapped in time.

You could give scientific bonuses to England/Great Britain for their industrialization, the many great scientists that lived there in the 19th century, et cetera... or you could focus on their colonial conquests and unmatched naval power, which were present during the same period. And the latter is arguably more unique.

Same with other countries.

Also, I suppose the industrial revolution in Europe was somewhat of a shared achievement, as opposed to a single civilization progressing beyond it's neighbors technologically.

I think it's more that "traditionally" England is associated with Seafaring, France with culture, Germany with industry etc.

But since civs in civ 7 seem to have 2 traits, it wouldn't be a problem:

England: Seafaring + Scientific
France: Culture + Scientific
Germany: Industrial + Scientific
etc.

(And no, I don't want *all* of them be scientific, just some)

 

[Arent11]

Well arguably, in Civ terms, Industrialization is economic and Rationalism/Empiricism/Enlightenment are all cultural. I think part of the problem is that Civ as a series presents technology as part of the inevitable march of progress, so all Civs are really equally "scientific". I'm also not sure how you'd identify which European Civs had particularly scientific traits anyway, as they shared a lot of the progress.

Oh, come on, electricity, steam engines, computers, refrigerators, rifles, genetics, molecular biology, planes, television, phones, coal power etc.

I mean, it's ok that Korea and Babylon are scientific, I don't mind. They can even be the "best" science civs. But at least some civs in this region should be scientific as well.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Should they all be scientific, probably not. I don't think it would hurt some of them to be. I think it was a real missed opportunity to not give Age of Steam Victoria any science bonuses in Civ 6. Instead, it was more production on top of the insane amount of production that England already got.

I would have liked it for Greece, but you also can't argue the fact that they are also made to be cultural and diplomatic. I can only imagine that their unique scholar, is usually a scientific civilian, which might come from an academy building, and most of them have cultural bonuses except one does produce science so that's a plus, right?

It remains to be seen about other civs but France at least has been shown and looks to maybe have a unique museum/exhibition hall by the screenshots and that could go scientific or cultural, in my opinion.

 

[Leyrann]

It remains to be seen about other civs but France at least has been shown and looks to maybe have a unique museum/exhibition hall by the screenshots and that could go scientific or cultural, in my opinion.

Honestly for France specifically I'd say they aren't really more scientific than the European average, but culturally they're very impressive. Definitely would prefer culture over science for them.

If I actually think about who should be scientific in Europe... I'd probably say England, maybe Germany. But I find it difficult.

 

[Xandinho]

Because maybe it runs into gameplay overlap? Either way, they can play perfectly well as scientists.

Civ6 England, for example, gets more yelds from powered buildings, which means that research labs, when powered, will be more powerful than standard research labs. This can make England a late-game science powerhouse without much effort.

Pericles Greece gets a big culture boost if you put in the slightest effort to be a diplomatic civ. More culture means stronger political cards, including scientific ones. In addition to the extra slot for wildcard , it gives you more convenience in choosing the path you want to take.

Germany, as an industrialist, can build campuses and their buildings more quickly.

 

[Leyrann]

Civ6 England, for example, gets more yelds from powered buildings, which means that research labs, when powered, will be more powerful than standard research labs. This can make England a late-game science powerhouse without much effort.

That's not a scientific bonus. That's a generic bonus.

You could apply the same reasoning to culture, economy or production.

 

[Atlas627]

Oh, come on, electricity, steam engines, computers, refrigerators, rifles, genetics, molecular biology, planes, television, phones, coal power etc.

I mean, it's ok that Korea and Babylon are scientific, I don't mind. They can even be the "best" science civs. But at least some civs in this region should be scientific as well.

I don't see how what I said deserves an "oh, come on" as if I'm being ridiculous. All of the inventions you mentioned are in the "globalization" period of history, where the whole world had those inventions, and that's why they're the model for the tech tree in that time period. And also, aside from genetics, every one of those inventions is notable for its economic/militaristic use (and genetics isn't because we haven't gotten that far yet).

Now, since we have the Ages system, perhaps Modern Britain will be Scientific and Industrial, but I think it will more likely be Imperial (Naval) and Industrial. Perhaps Modern France will be Scientific and Cultural, but I think it will more likely be Imperial (Napoleon-style) and Cultural. Perhaps Modern Germany will be Scientific and Industrial, but I think they will more likely be Imperial (Panzer-style) and Industrial. Regardless, I don't see any of the Exploration Age Europeans as being "scientific" except possibly a Renaissance Italy of some sort, but I expect them to be more Cultural.

However, the Civs also have more traits than before, so possibly they will get to be 3 things, and all of the above I mentioned will be Scientific in some way, as well.

 

[Disgustipated]

Civ 6 had Scotland and Sweden who had science bonuses. Realistically England and Germany should have had some as well, but they got the industrial bonuses which is fine. I'm happy enough with the representation in Civ 6. But they really did mess up with Korea and Babylon, less said about them the better.

 

[Arent11]

Because maybe it runs into gameplay overlap? Either way, they can play perfectly well as scientists.

Civ6 England, for example, gets more yelds from powered buildings, which means that research labs, when powered, will be more powerful than standard research labs. This can make England a late-game science powerhouse without much effort.

Pericles Greece gets a big culture boost if you put in the slightest effort to be a diplomatic civ. More culture means stronger political cards, including scientific ones. In addition to the extra slot for wildcard , it gives you more convenience in choosing the path you want to take.

Germany, as an industrialist, can build campuses and their buildings more quickly.

I think in one civ part, Greece was "philosophical", which was basically scientific. Maybe it was civ 3 or civ 4

 

[Xandinho]

That's not a scientific bonus. That's a generic bonus.

You could apply the same reasoning to culture, economy or production.

Yes, you can. But powered English research labs will always be stronger than powered research labs from any other civ, so it's a science boost. If you can power up 10 research labs (and this is fairly easy for English, due to their bonuses), you'll come out ahead with an extra 40 science.

 

[Arent11]

I don't see how what I said deserves an "oh, come on" as if I'm being ridiculous. All of the inventions you mentioned are in the "globalization" period of history, where the whole world had those inventions, and that's why they're the model for the tech tree in that time period. And also, aside from genetics, every one of those inventions is notable for its economic/militaristic use (and genetics isn't because we haven't gotten that far yet).

Now, since we have the Ages system, perhaps Modern Britain will be Scientific and Industrial, but I think it will more likely be Imperial (Naval) and Industrial. Perhaps Modern France will be Scientific and Cultural, but I think it will more likely be Imperial (Napoleon-style) and Cultural. Perhaps Modern Germany will be Scientific and Industrial, but I think they will more likely be Imperial (Panzer-style) and Industrial. Regardless, I don't see any of the Exploration Age Europeans as being "scientific" except possibly a Renaissance Italy of some sort, but I expect them to be more Cultural.

However, the Civs also have more traits than before, so possibly they will get to be 3 things, and all of the above I mentioned will be Scientific in some way, as well.

I did not mean to imply that you said anything ridiculous. I just wanted to point out huge scientific advances that dwarf anything Babylon or Korea created.

So, Babylon and Korea can be science civs, I don't mind. I merely think that the extreme advances in the 19th, 20th century should somehow be represented.

 

[Patine]

Should they all be scientific, probably not. I don't think it would hurt some of them to be. I think it was a real missed opportunity to not give Age of Steam Victoria any science bonuses in Civ 6. Instead, it was more production on top of the insane amount of production that England already got.

Well, not all of them, certaainly. Russia, Poland, Spain, and the Ottomans were very notably, comparatively lagging. Even Ottoman gun/cannon technology of fame was a direct import from Persia, which they, in turn, got from China - not an Ottoman innovation.

 

[Ornen]

From Civ 6, Scotland has a great set of abilities for science. Germany is also very good for science victories, and +1 district is super helpful for a variety of approaches.

Science was so powerful in Civ 5 that the devs were careful not to give any civs in base Civ 6 a hard +Science power. That ruled out most of the big Euro power players. They eventually added civs with +Science abilities, but honestly some of those — looking at you, Maya — are less effective at science than Scotland & Germany.

So I don't really think Europe has a science problem in Civ 6. There's a case for giving England a +Science ability, but their science peak is very strongly associated with the industrial revolution, which suggests other bonuses (such as to production, resources, and colonialism).

 

[IdiotStyle]

I think the science thing can be overcomed for civ 7. because of eras. France isn't known to be too scientific for it's entire lifespan. only pretty much industrial rev. Same for a lot of european civ, but since they can be split up now, it gives them more uniqueness because you have less to chose from. mixing medieval france, renaissance france, indus and modern france was giving them too much to choose from.

 

[Arent11]

Civ 6 had Scotland and Sweden who had science bonuses. Realistically England and Germany should have had some as well, but they got the industrial bonuses which is fine. I'm happy enough with the representation in Civ 6. But they really did mess up with Korea and Babylon, less said about them the better.

Did you feel they were overpowered or cheesy?

The question is whether they are really that famous for being "productive" (Germany is) or just invented factories first I think countries famous for productivity would be Germany, China etc.

Germany could be industrial/scientific. Although I'm sure some people will object and argue Germany can't be that peaceful & *needs* to be militarist & have tanks

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

Don't forget Japan. They got a science boost in Civ VI which was well deserved IMO.

 

[Arent11]

From Civ 6, Scotland has a great set of abilities for science. Germany is also very good for science victories, and +1 district is super helpful for a variety of approaches.

Science was so powerful in Civ 5 that the devs were careful not to give any civs in base Civ 6 a hard +Science power. That ruled out most of the big Euro power players. They eventually added civs with +Science abilities, but honestly some of those — looking at you, Maya — are less effective at science than Scotland & Germany.

So I don't really think Europe has a science problem in Civ 6. There's a case for giving England a +Science ability, but their science peak is very strongly associated with the industrial revolution, which suggests other bonuses (such as to production, resources, and colonialism).

The Abbasids are listed as scientific, I think, so I guess they have some mild science advantage.