Why ask for an Italy civ when you can reasonably ask for two Italian based civs?

Joined
Apr 14, 2021
Messages
21
Location
Marchesato di Saluzzo, Italian peninsula
Hello everybody! This is my first proper post on this forum after reading it for several years.
The title of the thread sums it up: as an Italian I've always been surprisingly unbaffled by the absence of an Italian civilization in the game; we are very young as a unitary country (just celebrated our 160th anniversary), we have little to no leader which would be solid enough as a pick (none from the Republican era, Mussolini definitely out of question and no King was ever relevant.

However, every time there is a new Civ update video, the comments are always flooded with people asking for an Italian civ, which is not imho possible, especially when they ask for someone like Lorenzo de' Medici to be the leader, while he only ruled Florence and some tuscanian cities subject to Florence and the political situation in XV century Italy was much more fragmented than classical Greece (so the comparison with Pericles doesn't really hold imho.

Therefore, what I personally thought could be a solution, and I'm sharing it here to hear all the feedbacks and criticisms you have, from my point of view of an Italian which is passionate about history was:
"Why don't we focus on preunitarian states and stop asking for Italy?"

The two possible civs I would have come up with are:
  • the Kingdom of Sardinia, the Italian state which led the unification process, led by Camillo Benso conte di Cavour, first Prime Minister of the unified Italy, who died two months after unification.
  • the Norman Kingdom of Sicily, the medieval portion of the HRE in Italy, possibly led by Federico II, grandson of Barbarossa, named German emperor at 18 (so we could also see him as an alt leader for Germany) and officially crowned at 26, under which science and culture flourished, leading also to the birth of Italian literature, around a century before Dante, who was an admirer of the Sicilian School.
Kingdom of Sardinia

Kingdom of Sardinia is the prosecution of the Duchy of Savoy, which became Kingdom when in 1713 the Duchy chose the right side to ally with in the Spanish Succession War and was awarded the Kingdom of Sicily. However, Sicily was too important a land to be left in the hands of a small spot on the European map, so the major powers offered the just become-King of Sicily a not so profitable trade:
"you give Sicily back to Naples kingdom and in exchange you take Sardinia, not as good as Sicily, but we let you keep it and also the Kingdom title".
If you look at a map of Italy, it's quite clear that Savoy could have never kept hold of Sicily, so the trade deal was finished in 1720.

Notice how I used the expression "chose the right side" and not for random: the whole "Italy switching sides" meme (which happened only in WW2 when Italy was invaded by Allies and capitulated in a way similar to what Vichy's France did) comes from this: during the modern age and the dynastycal wars, Savoy duchy was infamous for its betrayals, peaceing out and then reverting against former allies, starting and finishing a war on the same side because they jumped over the fence twice and it was actually the only thing they could do, a small mountainous duchy compressed between France, Austria and Spain's possession of Milan: if Spain lost one of these wars, it would lose some possessions here and there or a couple of bordering provinces; if Savoy lost a war, it would be wiped out of the map.

This leads us to the Civ's UA which I would call Piemontese falso e cortese (tr: "Piedmontese, a liar and a courteous") from the stereotype that surrounds us Piedmontese (the main region of Savoy Duchy later known as Kingdom of Sardinia which went on to become Italy... I told you Italian history is complicated :lol:
This ability could be integrating a diplomatic/militaristic playstyle with bonuses like:
  • you cannot declare surprise wars (because you know, we are courteous) BUT you can declare wars 5 turns after denouncing or getting denounced (against 10 at normal speed) and grievances from DoW, capturing cities are halved. Also, you can peace out after 5 instead of 10 turns, so you can get the bribe from another civ to DoW against their foe, then peace out with anybody ever remembering it.
  • diplo favour penalty for capitals captured is halved.
  • You can join military emergencies you voted against up to 15 turns into it (useful if an aggressive AI captures a city state on the other side of the world and you don't want to mess up with it) BUT the boni you receive in case the emergency succeeds are halved compared to if you joined right at the start.
Regarding the leader, Cavour was heavily keen on industrializing Piedmont, led to the construction of railroads to the harbor of Genoa and built several canals, but at the same time was a connoisseur of agricultural techniques, introduced the cultivation of asparagus and in 7 years he tripled corn production of his own territories before turning to politics, thanks to savvy agricultural techniques.
This could be a well fertile land (sorry for the pun) for a Persona playstyle like that of Caterina and TR, but in the end, if I had to choose just one UA I would do something like...

Unification trailer:
cities connected with a railway to the capital obtain +20% to all yields (or just +10, I don't know how powerful this could be, since I almost never see railroads being used). Canals provide +1 gold and food to adjacent farms. Farms on bonus resources give +1 production, becoming +2 upon Steam Power discovery and farms on luxury resources provide +1 gold, becoming +2 after SP.
I think that these bonuses could be split in case of a Persona leader, like Agrarian Cavour gets the boni on farms and Industrialist Cavour gets the boni on rail + some bonus to building IZ and relative buildings.

For the UU, I would go with the Bersaglieri, a line infantry replacement with lower strength (maybe 5 or 6 points less) but one extra movement and which can ignore walls when attacking cities (including urban defences, even though they should be gone when steel gets in the game).

For the UD, I was thinking about a thing which really shapes the view around here, the Cascina (pl. Cascine), basically small towns or large farms, difficult to tell which of the two, which are big complexes of buildings also including a church, a shop sometimes, or a school in most recent years, surrounded by the fields where cascine inhabitants work. In Civ VI mechanics, I think this could be a replacement for Neighbourhood, unlocked at Feudalism, which gives housing regardless of the appeal (kind of like the Mbanza), but gives +2 housing as a base, plus +1 housing per each adjacent farm, to also synergise with the fact that LUA heavily inclines on farms.

For the colour combination I thought about the following ones, tested on a possible Bersagliere icon:
bersgliere.gif

bersagliere2.gif

The first two jerseys are with inverted colours, the blue of Savoy, which is the reason why Italian NTs are called "Azzurri", even if no blue is on our flag and crimson, a colour traditionally associated to Turin nobility after the French siege of 1706.

City list:
According to the provinces subdivision of 1859, the main cities (province capitals) were:
Torino (capital, 173k inhabitants)
Genova (240k inhabitants, larger than the capital because it was a port and had been added to the Kingdom quite recently)
Alessandria (circa 50k inhabitants)
Nizza (44k inhabitants)
Cagliari (37k)
Sassari (25k)
Novara (25k)
Cuneo (circa 20k)
Chambéry (19k)
Annecy (10k)
with further important cities being Alba, Saluzzo, Mondovì, Casale Monferrato, Nizza Monferrato and Acqui Terme.

Regarding the music, Piedmontese music is traditionally based on accordion, with also a great importance for choirs. A song which would fit nicely into the style of Civ VI music could be "La bergera", whose melody blends well with those already present in the game. The text is about a woman who is looking after her sheeps in the mountains, which is courted by a Frenchman passing by when her husband comes out of the house and dances with her. Not so different from the likes of Kalinka to say one. This song comes from the mountainous regions of Piedmont, where the oc language is still spoken and the hurdy-gurdy is a common instrument.


Kingdom of Norman Sicily
Unluckily, I don't have as deep a knowledge of Sicily as I have of Piedmont (my region), so I leave the floor open to your suggestions/proposal if some Sicilians players pass by or if some history students know it better than me.
However, what even a not so deep knowledge like mine can't miss is how important and defining Federico II (or Frederich Roger II von Hohenstaufen, as he was of mixed Southern Italian and German descent) was for Italian culture and not only. He is always referred to as the "Stupor Mundi" for how cultured and elegant is court was, but his apple did not land so far from the tree of his grandad, the Barbarossa which is currently leading Germany. As said, this could also end up in getting picked as an alt leader for Germany too, following the steps of Eleanor and Kublai.

Focussing on this civ's ability, I think this could be a civ that likes to be played tall, like really tall, not like Maya. This would play well with the fact that Southern Italian cities like Palermo and Napoli were major cities in the Middle Age and also with the fact that Federico accentrated much power, while before he inherited the Kingdom from his mother, the feudal fragmentation was very heavy.
LUA: Stupor Mundi: any district placed in a charming tile gets +1 of the corresponding GP point (like Bologna's actual ability), +2 if the tile is breathtaking. +2 appeal to all tiles in cities with a governor.

This to represent, as said, the great cultural and scientific importance this Kingdom had in the Middle Age.
To also represent the centralization of the powers in the Norman Kingdom, the CUA (I don't have a name for this) could be something like:
  • Cities with an established governor build districts 50% faster than normal, 100% faster if that district is already present in the capital (sort of similar to Rome in civ V iirc).
  • Governors provide +1 amenity to their city.
  • Governors provide +1 housing per promotion to their city.
  • BUT cities without governors cannot build districts.
Unluckily, I couldn't think of a good choice for UU and UB, so I'm open to hear your feedbacks.
The colours for this kingdom could be the following:
federico1.png

With gold and black being the colours both of the first Norman rulers of Sicily and of course the HRE
federico2.png

this is a second jersey for when yellow is not available as main colour, with silver being another colour often present on Altavilla's coat of arms.
federico3.png

same saying goes for blood red and gold, which are common in their araldic, especially since Normans came from well, you know Normandy.
federico4.png
federico4.png

This last jersey bearing the colours of the House of the Altavilla after being crowned Kings of Sicily, so on his mother's side.


I hope you can like my idea and if you think I've made mistakes, please point them out and be sure that I did not intend to offend anybody!
 

Duke William of Normandy

King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
3,611
Location
Rouen, Normandy
...First of all, I love your work ethic and ideas. Second, is it possible to recruit you via DM's to help me with my ideas as I have no clue how to make Civ icons? :lol:

You have a bright future, man. :D

For Siciliy's UU, we could use a Milite, and the UI could be a Vineyard to represent alter Sicilian History.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2021
Messages
21
Location
Marchesato di Saluzzo, Italian peninsula
...First of all, I love your work ethic and ideas. Second, is it possible to recruit you via DM's to help me with my ideas as I have no clue how to make Civ icons? :lol:

You have a bright future, man. :D

For Siciliy's UU, we could use a Milite, and the UI could be a Vineyard to represent alter Sicilian History.

Well to read such a nice compliment from such an influential user over here it's just... (even though you might not be 100% unbiased :lol:).
Btw I love work ethics too, since they changed its ability to adjacency bonus it's a must for me!
Speaking seriously, it would be an honour if you contacted me via DM, I'm always open to such collaborations, Civ adjacency bonuses were a nice starting point for a sustainable development board game I worked to with 7 classmates for a project at Politecnico last year, so I'm always willing on this side!

(Also I had prepared a small list of WW I'd like to see added to the game with their own bonuses on a historical basis, maybe I can share them with you too?:mischief:)
 

Evie

Pronounced like Eevee
Joined
Jan 5, 2002
Messages
10,017
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Why only ask for Italy? Because we get only so many civs included in the game, and there are whole regions and cultural spheres that don't get any at all, so giving multiple civs to one cultural region is hard to justify.

Mind you, your designs are cool, and both of them eould be sn interesting civ to represent Italy.
 

TyrannusRex

Warlord
Joined
Jun 18, 2017
Messages
195
Location
West Virginia
...First of all, I love your work ethic and ideas. Second, is it possible to recruit you via DM's to help me with my ideas as I have no clue how to make Civ icons? :lol:

You have a bright future, man. :D

For Siciliy's UU, we could use a Milite, and the UI could be a Vineyard to represent alter Sicilian History.
I myself use a photoshop-like program, create a perfect circle, insert a PNG of whatever emblem I want to represent them, then play around with the fill tool.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2021
Messages
21
Location
Marchesato di Saluzzo, Italian peninsula
Why only ask for Italy? Because we get only so many civs included in the game, and there are whole regions and cultural spheres that don't get any at all, so giving multiple civs to one cultural region is hard to justify.

Mind you, your designs are cool, and both of them eould be sn interesting civ to represent Italy.
Well, I for sure get your point! This is why I say that I'm not so obsessed with getting Italy in the game: of course who says "we don't need Italy, we already have Rome" is naive at least, but I clearly understand that Europe is not among the most underrepresented areas.
However, the main reason why I put two Italian civs was
  • A provocation: stop asking for an impossible civ, dive deep in the Italian history and you'll find lots of candidates.
  • A safety measure: Italy is the country of 1000 clocktowers. It means that there is huge rivalry between neighboring towns, let alone between North and South. If I only proposed Kingdom of Sardinia, I would get "hate" for being biased towards the North. On the other hand, I don't know enough about Southern history to be able to design well enough a proposed Southern civ.
To close things up: are you so sure that Italy is such a homogeneous cultural sphere? Especially since we're talking about distant in the time and not only in the space: Sardinia is a closer to French language and culture Kingdom (even though the real Sardinia is another thing, with its own millenary culture, language completely different from Italian, influences also from Catalunya).
On the contrary, Sicily had just exited from Arab domination at the time, and was ruled by a Norman dynasty, while Federico II himself was also of German descent.

Btw, I'm 100% agreeing with you on first of all filling those areas which are empty as of now (Africa, central Asia, North America)
 

Maat

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
24
Hello everybody! This is my first proper post on this forum after reading it for several years.
The title of the thread sums it up: as an Italian I've always been surprisingly unbaffled by the absence of an Italian civilization in the game; we are very young as a unitary country (just celebrated our 160th anniversary), we have little to no leader which would be solid enough as a pick (none from the Republican era, Mussolini definitely out of question and no King was ever relevant.

However, every time there is a new Civ update video, the comments are always flooded with people asking for an Italian civ, which is not imho possible, especially when they ask for someone like Lorenzo de' Medici to be the leader, while he only ruled Florence and some tuscanian cities subject to Florence and the political situation in XV century Italy was much more fragmented than classical Greece (so the comparison with Pericles doesn't really hold imho.

Therefore, what I personally thought could be a solution, and I'm sharing it here to hear all the feedbacks and criticisms you have, from my point of view of an Italian which is passionate about history was:
"Why don't we focus on preunitarian states and stop asking for Italy?"

The two possible civs I would have come up with are:
  • the Kingdom of Sardinia, the Italian state which led the unification process, led by Camillo Benso conte di Cavour, first Prime Minister of the unified Italy, who died two months after unification.
  • the Norman Kingdom of Sicily, the medieval portion of the HRE in Italy, possibly led by Federico II, grandson of Barbarossa, named German emperor at 18 (so we could also see him as an alt leader for Germany) and officially crowned at 26, under which science and culture flourished, leading also to the birth of Italian literature, around a century before Dante, who was an admirer of the Sicilian School.
Kingdom of Sardinia

Kingdom of Sardinia is the prosecution of the Duchy of Savoy, which became Kingdom when in 1713 the Duchy chose the right side to ally with in the Spanish Succession War and was awarded the Kingdom of Sicily. However, Sicily was too important a land to be left in the hands of a small spot on the European map, so the major powers offered the just become-King of Sicily a not so profitable trade:
"you give Sicily back to Naples kingdom and in exchange you take Sardinia, not as good as Sicily, but we let you keep it and also the Kingdom title".
If you look at a map of Italy, it's quite clear that Savoy could have never kept hold of Sicily, so the trade deal was finished in 1720.

Notice how I used the expression "chose the right side" and not for random: the whole "Italy switching sides" meme (which happened only in WW2 when Italy was invaded by Allies and capitulated in a way similar to what Vichy's France did) comes from this: during the modern age and the dynastycal wars, Savoy duchy was infamous for its betrayals, peaceing out and then reverting against former allies, starting and finishing a war on the same side because they jumped over the fence twice and it was actually the only thing they could do, a small mountainous duchy compressed between France, Austria and Spain's possession of Milan: if Spain lost one of these wars, it would lose some possessions here and there or a couple of bordering provinces; if Savoy lost a war, it would be wiped out of the map.

This leads us to the Civ's UA which I would call Piemontese falso e cortese (tr: "Piedmontese, a liar and a courteous") from the stereotype that surrounds us Piedmontese (the main region of Savoy Duchy later known as Kingdom of Sardinia which went on to become Italy... I told you Italian history is complicated :lol:
This ability could be integrating a diplomatic/militaristic playstyle with bonuses like:
  • you cannot declare surprise wars (because you know, we are courteous) BUT you can declare wars 5 turns after denouncing or getting denounced (against 10 at normal speed) and grievances from DoW, capturing cities are halved. Also, you can peace out after 5 instead of 10 turns, so you can get the bribe from another civ to DoW against their foe, then peace out with anybody ever remembering it.
  • diplo favour penalty for capitals captured is halved.
  • You can join military emergencies you voted against up to 15 turns into it (useful if an aggressive AI captures a city state on the other side of the world and you don't want to mess up with it) BUT the boni you receive in case the emergency succeeds are halved compared to if you joined right at the start.
Regarding the leader, Cavour was heavily keen on industrializing Piedmont, led to the construction of railroads to the harbor of Genoa and built several canals, but at the same time was a connoisseur of agricultural techniques, introduced the cultivation of asparagus and in 7 years he tripled corn production of his own territories before turning to politics, thanks to savvy agricultural techniques.
This could be a well fertile land (sorry for the pun) for a Persona playstyle like that of Caterina and TR, but in the end, if I had to choose just one UA I would do something like...

Unification trailer:
cities connected with a railway to the capital obtain +20% to all yields (or just +10, I don't know how powerful this could be, since I almost never see railroads being used). Canals provide +1 gold and food to adjacent farms. Farms on bonus resources give +1 production, becoming +2 upon Steam Power discovery and farms on luxury resources provide +1 gold, becoming +2 after SP.
I think that these bonuses could be split in case of a Persona leader, like Agrarian Cavour gets the boni on farms and Industrialist Cavour gets the boni on rail + some bonus to building IZ and relative buildings.

For the UU, I would go with the Bersaglieri, a line infantry replacement with lower strength (maybe 5 or 6 points less) but one extra movement and which can ignore walls when attacking cities (including urban defences, even though they should be gone when steel gets in the game).

For the UD, I was thinking about a thing which really shapes the view around here, the Cascina (pl. Cascine), basically small towns or large farms, difficult to tell which of the two, which are big complexes of buildings also including a church, a shop sometimes, or a school in most recent years, surrounded by the fields where cascine inhabitants work. In Civ VI mechanics, I think this could be a replacement for Neighbourhood, unlocked at Feudalism, which gives housing regardless of the appeal (kind of like the Mbanza), but gives +2 housing as a base, plus +1 housing per each adjacent farm, to also synergise with the fact that LUA heavily inclines on farms.

For the colour combination I thought about the following ones, tested on a possible Bersagliere icon:
View attachment 593748
View attachment 593749
The first two jerseys are with inverted colours, the blue of Savoy, which is the reason why Italian NTs are called "Azzurri", even if no blue is on our flag and crimson, a colour traditionally associated to Turin nobility after the French siege of 1706.

City list:
According to the provinces subdivision of 1859, the main cities (province capitals) were:
Torino (capital, 173k inhabitants)
Genova (240k inhabitants, larger than the capital because it was a port and had been added to the Kingdom quite recently)
Alessandria (circa 50k inhabitants)
Nizza (44k inhabitants)
Cagliari (37k)
Sassari (25k)
Novara (25k)
Cuneo (circa 20k)
Chambéry (19k)
Annecy (10k)
with further important cities being Alba, Saluzzo, Mondovì, Casale Monferrato, Nizza Monferrato and Acqui Terme.

Regarding the music, Piedmontese music is traditionally based on accordion, with also a great importance for choirs. A song which would fit nicely into the style of Civ VI music could be "La bergera", whose melody blends well with those already present in the game. The text is about a woman who is looking after her sheeps in the mountains, which is courted by a Frenchman passing by when her husband comes out of the house and dances with her. Not so different from the likes of Kalinka to say one. This song comes from the mountainous regions of Piedmont, where the oc language is still spoken and the hurdy-gurdy is a common instrument.


Kingdom of Norman Sicily
Unluckily, I don't have as deep a knowledge of Sicily as I have of Piedmont (my region), so I leave the floor open to your suggestions/proposal if some Sicilians players pass by or if some history students know it better than me.
However, what even a not so deep knowledge like mine can't miss is how important and defining Federico II (or Frederich Roger II von Hohenstaufen, as he was of mixed Southern Italian and German descent) was for Italian culture and not only. He is always referred to as the "Stupor Mundi" for how cultured and elegant is court was, but his apple did not land so far from the tree of his grandad, the Barbarossa which is currently leading Germany. As said, this could also end up in getting picked as an alt leader for Germany too, following the steps of Eleanor and Kublai.

Focussing on this civ's ability, I think this could be a civ that likes to be played tall, like really tall, not like Maya. This would play well with the fact that Southern Italian cities like Palermo and Napoli were major cities in the Middle Age and also with the fact that Federico accentrated much power, while before he inherited the Kingdom from his mother, the feudal fragmentation was very heavy.
LUA: Stupor Mundi: any district placed in a charming tile gets +1 of the corresponding GP point (like Bologna's actual ability), +2 if the tile is breathtaking. +2 appeal to all tiles in cities with a governor.

This to represent, as said, the great cultural and scientific importance this Kingdom had in the Middle Age.
To also represent the centralization of the powers in the Norman Kingdom, the CUA (I don't have a name for this) could be something like:
  • Cities with an established governor build districts 50% faster than normal, 100% faster if that district is already present in the capital (sort of similar to Rome in civ V iirc).
  • Governors provide +1 amenity to their city.
  • Governors provide +1 housing per promotion to their city.
  • BUT cities without governors cannot build districts.
Unluckily, I couldn't think of a good choice for UU and UB, so I'm open to hear your feedbacks.
The colours for this kingdom could be the following:View attachment 593751
With gold and black being the colours both of the first Norman rulers of Sicily and of course the HRE
View attachment 593752
this is a second jersey for when yellow is not available as main colour, with silver being another colour often present on Altavilla's coat of arms.
View attachment 593753
same saying goes for blood red and gold, which are common in their araldic, especially since Normans came from well, you know Normandy.
View attachment 593754 View attachment 593754
This last jersey bearing the colours of the House of the Altavilla after being crowned Kings of Sicily, so on his mother's side.


I hope you can like my idea and if you think I've made mistakes, please point them out and be sure that I did not intend to offend anybody!
That’s a lot to ask but I think having Rome as a civilisation is sufficient, unless historic Romans were never really Italians to begin with. Are you saying Italians are a recent modern aspect of history and have nothing to do with the Romans?
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2021
Messages
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Marchesato di Saluzzo, Italian peninsula
That’s a lot to ask but I think having Rome as a civilisation is sufficient, unless historic Romans were never really Italians to begin with. Are you saying Italians are a recent modern aspect of history and have nothing to do with the Romans?
Well...
this is a tough question and I need to reply in a longer way than you probably expected. As I said, I am actually fine with no Italy being in the game and I am a bit tired to read about people asking for Italy to be inserted in the game with Garibaldi or Lorenzo de' Medici as a leader because it simply doesn't make sense!
Does it mean I agree with you in "we don't need Italy because we already have Rome"? Absolutely not!

My defense is the following:
if you go for language affinity (which actually is not correct since we the Italians do not speak Latin) then I would ask you why to add Canada, Australia and - yes - why America then, since they all speak English! (which is even deeper than the language connection we have with Rome).
If on the contrary you go for geographic affinity, then I am willing to concede you a point, or at least half a point: on TSL maps, Europe is already too crowded and this would only make it worse, fair point. We need more African civs for sure, more MesoAmerican ones maybe? (even though now the South American continent is not as empty anymore) and we definitely need more central Asian civs and North Americans native tribes, that's fair. But if you say that we already have Rome, therefore we don't need anymore in the Italian Peninsula (remember, I'm not calling for Italy), then why did they add Gauls in the NFP? France is already represented by 3 civs then (France itself, Gauls and Romans). I took a look at the city list for Romans and...
Ostia The first and most important port of the Roman Empire
Antium
Cumae
Aquileia
Ravenna
Puteoli
Arretium
Mediolanum
Lugdunum (Lyon)
Arpinum
Setia
Velitrae
Durocortorum (Reims)
Brundisium
Caesaraugusta (Zaragoza)
Palmyra
Hispalis (Seville)
Caesarea
Artaxata
Paphos
Salonae
Eburacum (York)
Lauriacum
Verona
Colonia Agrippina (Cologne)
Narbo (Narbonne)

Tingi
Sarmizegetusa
Sirmium
Pompeii.
You see my point? Now, I'm not 100% sure about Narbonne, but I'm quite sure that all the cities I bolded are cities which are present in the game under other names for other civs. And seriously, the whole thing about two cities having different names and belonging to two different civs collapsed with the addition of Byzantium and the Vatican City city state, literally 0.44 km2 inside the city of Rome (well, this thing is actually not the dumbest, since to modern day Ostia has become a quarter of Rome...).
The final argument in defense of "Italy is not just Rome" is that Rome collapsed 1600 years ago and Italy has seen dominations by tens if not hundreds of different cultures: Vandals, Ostrogoth, Longobards, Bizantine, Francs (and I'm only up to 800 AD now), then Arabs, Germans, French, Spanish, other Arabs reigns, Austrians, other Spanish and French dynasties not to mention Normans, which are the subject of one of my two civilizations proposed here.

So to answer your final question: it would be fake to say that Italians have nothing to do with Romans, but on the contrary I would say that Romans were not "Italians" in the meaning that they called Italic populations the other populations of the peninsula, like Etrurian, Volsci and so on.

Of course I appreciate this sincere feedback, I'm not deaf to criticisms, otherwise I would not have made this post in first place. However, what I would like to focus is that we are both on the same side: stop asking for Italy (a lab creation let's say) and dive deep in the history of preRoman and post Roman Italy.
Let's say I won't be complaining if we don't get any more Italic civs in the game, but saying "we have Rome" is not a reasonable excuse (while overcrowding of European maps or underrepresentation of certain other areas for sure are) and I would be terribly upset if they incline to fans request by creating an Italian civ, which imho would look and feel like a "plastic" civ, way worse than the critics of Canada and Australia were fearing from their inclusion in the game
 
Joined
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Messages
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Marchesato di Saluzzo, Italian peninsula
...First of all, I love your work ethic and ideas. Second, is it possible to recruit you via DM's to help me with my ideas as I have no clue how to make Civ icons? :lol:

You have a bright future, man. :D

For Siciliy's UU, we could use a Milite, and the UI could be a Vineyard to represent alter Sicilian History.

For the unique building, your suggestion of Vineyard led me to think of Ars Venatoria, id est Hunting, as I recall Federico II to be a great enthusiast of haunting with the aid of hawks and this was a common practice in middle ages, especially in the Norman Kingdom. So maybe, the UB could be a Falconery, substituting the Zoo but available at Medieval Fairs, so way earlier than it, in synergy with how tall this civ would have to be played. Bonuses would be the same as the Zoo, so +2 amenity to all cities within 6 tiles and the bonus science, but in addition to that, every city in the radius also gains an additional amenity from every camp they built, kind of similar to the bonus given by the Temple of Artemis. If this is too powerful, it could be buffed to like +1 base amenity, but I think it would also be counterbalancing a strategy which seems to be quite OP, id est chopping all bonus resources to grow rapidly the city.
For a UU, I think it should definitely be a Knight replacement, maybe with lower production cost but higher maintenance cost (representing the fact that Normans first came into Italy as mercenaries), but yielding bonus gold per each kill it makes (again, concept of mercenary) or having bonus to attacking city states units. So something like this:

Base strength 50 (compared to 48 for base Knight)
170 production, 680 gold (compared to 220, 880 for base), requires 20 iron
4 movement, 6 gold maintaining (compared to 4)
+25% pillaging yields, grants gold equal to 20% of base strength of a unit it kills.
+5 combat strength in attacking city states units, -50% penalty when attacking city centres.

I designed the mix of bonus and malus in order to make sense with the whole playstyle this civ would have: there would be no point in conquering new cities, as they would be barely usable, since no governors could reside there. On the contrary, you can sustain the economy of your tall empire by working as a mercenary throughout the medieval age and renaissance, since you will likely have less than 8 trade routes; get bribed by other players for DoW onto somebody, pillage here and there (and boost your cultural and scientific game in the process), get paid for the kills and then move on to the next day at the office.

What do you think of this possible characterization?
 
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Ok cool! I was tricked by my Latin heritage into thinking that the milite could be an “infantry” unit (of course being a medieval era, it would have been a men at arms replacement). However, I checked out and I can not find any mention of a Norman milite, where did you find it, just to know?
 

Drivingrevilo

Warlord
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As a Frederick II fan, I love the design for Stupor Mundi (which is 100% the best name for it).

But I’m left wondering whether something could be added to reflect what is probably Frederick’s most (in)famous achievement: diplomatically arranging the transfer of Jerusalem from Muslim to Christian control (the so-called “Sixth Crusade”). I don’t know how to represent this, but it’s a significant event in his life and should, somehow, be in there.

As for Sicily’s CUA, I would personally avoid the Governor route (it’s been done before) and instead go for something which represents how much of a cultural melting-pot Sicily has always been. During the Norman period, you had Byzantines, Arabs, and other locals mixing (largely) peacefully under Frankish overlords in a veritable cultural renaissance. And if you go even further back, you’ve got more periods of cultural and religious heterogeneity – for example, Greeks, Carthaginians, and Romans all living on the island in the Roman Republic / early Empire.

So I would make the design focussed on that, somehow. Perhaps the more religions present in a Sicilian city, the more culture / faith / production / GPP they generate? Or if that’s too similar to Gandhi, maybe the same but for when foreign loyalty is present in a Sicilian city?

Otherwise, I love the attention to detail!
 
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As a Frederick II fan, I love the design for Stupor Mundi (which is 100% the best name for it).

But I’m left wondering whether something could be added to reflect what is probably Frederick’s most (in)famous achievement: diplomatically arranging the transfer of Jerusalem from Muslim to Christian control (the so-called “Sixth Crusade”). I don’t know how to represent this, but it’s a significant event in his life and should, somehow, be in there.

As for Sicily’s CUA, I would personally avoid the Governor route (it’s been done before) and instead go for something which represents how much of a cultural melting-pot Sicily has always been. During the Norman period, you had Byzantines, Arabs, and other locals mixing (largely) peacefully under Frankish overlords in a veritable cultural renaissance. And if you go even further back, you’ve got more periods of cultural and religious heterogeneity – for example, Greeks, Carthaginians, and Romans all living on the island in the Roman Republic / early Empire.

So I would make the design focussed on that, somehow. Perhaps the more religions present in a Sicilian city, the more culture / faith / production / GPP they generate? Or if that’s too similar to Gandhi, maybe the same but for when foreign loyalty is present in a Sicilian city?

Otherwise, I love the attention to detail!

Well, this could be part of his second leader ability, you know for what? Exactly! His version as a leader of Germany, as his action in this diplomatic transfer was performed while he was HREmperor.
And for how to implement it, I've got an idea: it would work in a way similar to Commodore Perry's retirement ability, with a downside however: you can pay 20*the amount of the envoys of the player suzerain over a CS to remove all the envoys except yours (so also crippling lots of other players' economies)and then get the number of envoy of the old suzerain +1. By doing so, however, all players except your allies gain 10 grievancies * envoy you removed against you.

As for what you said about "peaceful" coexistence, are you sure we are talking about the same Sicily? :lol: Not to offend you, but Normans were mercenaries who settled down in the area coming as "workforce" for local wars and ended up getting sovereignty over the area after kicking out the Byzantines, the Longbards, fending off Papal armies and reconquering Sicily from Arabs like 4 centuries before the Reconquista. For sure, you may have some Leaders for Sicily with this unique ability, but I don't feel like it makes sense to characterize the whole civ around it. As said, I went with the governor playstyle because a criticism moved to Civ VI is that there is really no way to play other than wide and in a certain way this could be a tall civ, plus I thought it made sense to have a strong centralized civ, considering Frederick's reign was heavily focused on removing power from feudal structure and putting it back in his own hands, which eventually led to the birth of Italian literature. Your idea is definitely cool, but are you sure it would be historically accurate? (not to say that what I thought must be the absolute truth, not at all, just want to discuss it) However, it would be a different civ, for encouraging you to always play on the edge of the sword, trying to conquer free cities (you know what? this could be for sure a great LUA for Roger II, don't you think? as he was the one to unify all the Italian south) and on the potential to explode (in a positive way, ie skyrocket to the top) if your neighbours fall in a dramatic dark age with instaflip of their cities free for you to conquer, but also to go in one thousand pieces in case YOU go into a dark age (and not necessarily playing with Dramatic Ages activated, you need to have loyalty pressure from outside to gain from this ability, so a low internal pressure can start huge problems even if cities don't flip instantly).

I have to concede this to you, the more I was writing about this, the more I was hyped. But it seems not a mechanic I would buy a civ on, more something as a gimmick for a second leader.
Also why do you say that a governor gameplay was something already done? I mean, Korea has a bonus for governors, but I think not so heavy and especially with not such a huge penalty against not having them.

As for what concerns Roman Republic and Sicily as Mediterranean's granary, I would leave that out of play as it bears no connection to Norman Sicily apart from a (small) geographic similarity. (So it would be even more criticised than Barbarossa having U-boot)
Thank you very much for the useful feedback though and I hope we can have a nice and constructive discussion about it! :thumbsup:
 

Drivingrevilo

Warlord
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As for what you said about "peaceful" coexistence

Normans were mercenaries who settled down in the area coming as "workforce" for local wars

I know that the Normans' ascent to power was hardly peaceful: as you say, Robert Guiscard et al. were mercenaries invited into southern Italy who soon decided they'd rather subjugate the region for themselves. But once the monarchy had been created, the Norman kings were (as far as I remember from when I studied it, ca. ten years ago) very happy to allow cultural & religious heterogeneity in the kingdom.

Think of Roger II's famous Chapel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappella_Palatina ; https://www.wondersofsicily.com/palermo-palatine-chapel.htm): commissioned by a Catholic, but built by Greek and Muslim craftsmen in a unique blend of Byzantine & Arabic architecture. Similar for the cathedrals at Cefalù and Monreale.

Or the fact that Muhammad al-Idrisi, the famous Muslim cartographer who created his amazing map of the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Idrisi), was based in Roger II's court and was commissioned to make the map (in Arabic!) by Roger. And he wasn't the only Arab scholar based in Roger's court, either.

I mean, even Roger II's famous coronation mantle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_II_of_Sicily#The_Royal_Mantle_of_Roger_II), which I've been lucky enough to see in person, bore an Arabic inscription and an Arabic date on it.

So yeah: Roger was all about patronising and supporting Muslim / Byzantine culture. I'm certain there were other examples, I just can't remember them; as I say, it's been ten years since I took a module on the Norman kingdom at university.

EDIT: I've just discovered that Wikipedia has a whole page on this kind of thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture. That's what I was thinking of when I suggested the CUA.
 
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I know that the Normans' ascent to power was hardly peaceful: as you say, Robert Guiscard et al. were mercenaries invited into southern Italy who soon decided they'd rather subjugate the region for themselves. But once the monarchy had been created, the Norman kings were (as far as I remember from when I studied it, ca. ten years ago) very happy to allow cultural & religious heterogeneity in the kingdom.

Think of Roger II's famous Chapel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappella_Palatina ; https://www.wondersofsicily.com/palermo-palatine-chapel.htm): commissioned by a Catholic, but built by Greek and Muslim craftsmen in a unique blend of Byzantine & Arabic architecture. Similar for the cathedrals at Cefalù and Monreale.

Or the fact that Muhammad al-Idrisi, the famous Muslim cartographer who created his amazing map of the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Idrisi), was based in Roger II's court and was commissioned to make the map (in Arabic!) by Roger. And he wasn't the only Arab scholar based in Roger's court, either.

I mean, even Roger II's famous coronation mantle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_II_of_Sicily#The_Royal_Mantle_of_Roger_II), which I've been lucky enough to see in person, bore an Arabic inscription and an Arabic date on it.

So yeah: Roger was all about patronising and supporting Muslim / Byzantine culture. I'm certain there were other examples, I just can't remember them; as I say, it's been ten years since I took a module on the Norman kingdom at university.

EDIT: I've just discovered that Wikipedia has a whole page on this kind of thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture. That's what I was thinking of when I suggested the CUA.

Well, the I have to say "ubi maior, minor cessat". I didn't know you were a scholar on such subject and therefore I, an engineer, have to admit you are right, and what we studied in history at the Liceo was not as deep as your courses, so please forgive me for acknowledging them as just warmongers :).
By the way, the more I think about your build the more I get contrasting feelings about it: for sure it looks great, but also difficult to implement as gameplay; but if (when) I will send this idea to the devs, the for sure I will highlight your original idea!
Thanks for contributing to the thread and, btw, do you have any observation about historical mistakes in the two civs?
 

jasper

Warlord
Joined
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Messages
212
Location
USA
Dont listen to them.

So many people think civ6 video game needs to be politically correct and culturally equal. People always have the next great underrepresented civ like firaxis is running for president, like civ6 owes them something.

sardinia would be just as diverse and welcome an addition as insert african/s American civ.

I fondly remember that one civ4 or civ5 italian civ that was only allowed one city, forgot the name. Gameplay Uniqueness that is appropriate to the civ is worth more than an "under represented" civ that got green lighted for the sake of being under represented.
 

Linklite

Emperor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
1,536
Dont listen to them.

So many people think civ6 video game needs to be politically correct and culturally equal. People always have the next great underrepresented civ like firaxis is running for president, like civ6 owes them something.

sardinia would be just as diverse and welcome an addition as insert african/s American civ.

I fondly remember that one civ4 or civ5 italian civ that was only allowed one city, forgot the name. Gameplay Uniqueness that is appropriate to the civ is worth more than an "under represented" civ that got green lighted for the sake of being under represented.
For me it's not so much cultural representation, I'm happy with there being lots more European civs. The problem comes to be the TSL maps which I love playing. Currently in playing as GC and had the entirety of the Americas to myself. I literally could not get enough settlers to even take advantage of it all. Meanwhile, the French are doing a OCC because there literally isn't any room for them to have a second city. It already requires a lot of management to get it balanced. I imagine Africa is another area

But going back to the representation thing, it is important to have a spread. I love Italy and loved my time there, butnwe really don't need three civs from there. I think we can justify one more, a true Italian civ (if we can have France and Gaul, we can have Rome and an actual Italian civ too), but I think there are a lot of other civs I'd want to see before we got a third from Italy, especially since we have Byzantium too. Prussia, Assyria, various NA tribes, a lot of other good civs that need love.
 
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For me it's not so much cultural representation, I'm happy with there being lots more European civs. The problem comes to be the TSL maps which I love playing. Currently in playing as GC and had the entirety of the Americas to myself. I literally could not get enough settlers to even take advantage of it all. Meanwhile, the French are doing a OCC because there literally isn't any room for them to have a second city. It already requires a lot of management to get it balanced. I imagine Africa is another area

But going back to the representation thing, it is important to have a spread. I love Italy and loved my time there, butnwe really don't need three civs from there. I think we can justify one more, a true Italian civ (if we can have France and Gaul, we can have Rome and an actual Italian civ too), but I think there are a lot of other civs I'd want to see before we got a third from Italy, especially since we have Byzantium too. Prussia, Assyria, various NA tribes, a lot of other good civs that need love.
Not to mention there are already at least 3 "Italian" city-states that constantly spawn in that area on a TSL map. At least a proper singular Italian civ would probably get rid of at least one of them.

That's also sort of how I feel about adding multiple Indian civs too, as in the subcontinent of India.
 
Joined
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For me it's not so much cultural representation, I'm happy with there being lots more European civs. The problem comes to be the TSL maps which I love playing. Currently in playing as GC and had the entirety of the Americas to myself. I literally could not get enough settlers to even take advantage of it all. Meanwhile, the French are doing a OCC because there literally isn't any room for them to have a second city. It already requires a lot of management to get it balanced. I imagine Africa is another area

But going back to the representation thing, it is important to have a spread. I love Italy and loved my time there, butnwe really don't need three civs from there. I think we can justify one more, a true Italian civ (if we can have France and Gaul, we can have Rome and an actual Italian civ too), but I think there are a lot of other civs I'd want to see before we got a third from Italy, especially since we have Byzantium too. Prussia, Assyria, various NA tribes, a lot of other good civs that need love.
It is painful to be able to only like this reply once. Because I agree with 99% of what you said. I'm happy you enjoyed your time here, I'm happy to see other people say that, if France has 2.5 civs (because Gauls and France + Rome, which has many French cities in its list), then we (the Italians) clearly deserve to have a second representative in the game. I loved the proposal of Prussia, together with Assyria, as Germany is quite young itself (10 years later than Italy), so a preunitarian state would be perfect. And, despite having proposed it myself, I understand that 3 Italian civs on TSL are going to be bad (just like England+Scotland+France+Netherlands+Germany to be fair).
The only thing I disagree with you on is "a true Italian civ": it does not exist. If you want a modern Italy, go for Sardinia, if you want something cool go for Sicily, or the dark horse: Etrurians.
 
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