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Why Bernie Sanders should be president

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Lawn_Donuts, Dec 25, 2015.

  1. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Hum, I think you misunderstood what I said. Right now the US is very attractive to entrepreneurs, and tax rates even in places like NYC are low compared to similar global metropolis (Paris, London, etc). Still, some rich people (a very tiny minority) already feel tempted to leave.

    Should an extremist like Sanders win and enact his dramatic tax hike, not to mention other anti-business policies, it's not far fetched to imagine entrepreneurs and people of mobile wealth would leave in great numbers, as they have left France (and Hollande's tax hike was smaller than the one Sanders dreams of).

    But, as usual on the Internet, we're just making our keyboards a little more beaten up. Because Hillary will win.
     
  2. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    It's hard to find policies that will cause median income to rise with growth without the rich whining. The 'new normal' is for the ultra-rich to capture the majority of the wealth gain. And they threaten to impoverish everyone if that equilibrium is imbalanced.
     
  3. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Hyperbole. First of all, Bernie isn't that extreme. Not a fraction as extreme as Cruz, or Trump, or Carson, or nearly all of the other Republicans. Not if you pay attention to what he's actually been doing and saying. He's much more in tune with the American public in general than any of the others. It's only the crony capitalism establishment that he's way different from. Second, the US economy has suffered vastly from the extreme shift to the right on economic policy. We are a far weaker and poorer country because of the 'conservatives' we have elected. There's no way that Bernie could more than begin to equalize economic policy. He'd never have that much opportunity or power. So whatever he might want to do, he's far more limited in what he might do than you seem to realize. Third, Bernie is half and half on bad economic policies. All the Republicans are much worse, and will be much worse for the economy, both in the short run and in the long run. But Bernie is so vastly much better at all of the other policies of government that it's not even a comparison.

    As far as people leaving the US, it will never come to that. The whole concept of it happening in big numbers is ridiculous. There just isn't any place for them to go. Here is where they get all of what they need to make the wealth in the first place. Leaving means that they don't get to be rich in the first place.

    Businesses thrive when the whole economy thrives which is when all of the people thrive. We've had crap economic performance since Reagan because conservatives took away the ability of all the people to thrive. It has been conservative policy which has killed business investment. It has been conservative policy which has killed new business formation.

    We are not risking socialism if Bernie is elected, we are risking capitalism which functions better, and creates more wealth. Why would people leave the country in the face of that?
     
  4. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    That might be true, but what would you suggest doing instead?

    Note: the tax hikes on the rich in France have been a massive failure (for France, the UK seems happy). I think it's important to emphasize this enough.
     
  5. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    @ Luiz: Got any articles on the French tax refugees?
    I don't remember reading anything about it and the only person from France I can think of who left due to the tax rate was Gerard Depardieu -who immediately went to that liberal paradise known as the Russian Federation- and I'm not sure he is who you want as the poster-boy for the French tax-refugees narrative.
     
  6. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    I suspect that this is because Mrs H R Clinton comes across as grandma
    who will tell them to comb their hair before lunch, switch off their phones
    in the cinema, tidy their bedrooms and stop surfing the Internet for erotica.

    In this respect, they may feel more comfortable with uncle Mr D Trump,
    who will merely shout that their football team is rubbish while drinking beer.
     
  7. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Why did rich people leave France? It's not socialism here either, Hollande just wanted to make capitalism "fairer" and better functioning for the common man.

    I really think Bernie would be a disaster for the long term prosperity of the US. And say what you will, the US has fared far better than most of the developed world in the last decades.

    But again, Sanders will lose, so you will get Hillary (I very much doubt any Republican can beat Hillary - but I'm sure Sanders can't).
     
  8. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    There are a lot of sources, specially if you speak French.

    Here are some interesting and updates figures.

    Some highlights:

    -"Fiscal exile" increased 40% in 2013 face 2012 (first year of tax hikes).

    -Of the 500 greatest fortunes in France, 100 have moved to Belgium alone. This represents 17 billion Euro in wealth - and remember, wealth is taxed in France, so this is a direct loss of revenue.

    -Looking just at the tax loss is misleading, because while non-negligible, the most damaging fact is the loss of wealth creation from the flight of entrepreneurs.
     
  9. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    France enacted a marginal tax rate far in excess of anything which you could get even 1/4 of the Democrats in Congress to support. So what Bernie thinks is a proper top rate isn't even relevant. But the French situation is unlike the American in a number of other ways as well.
     
  10. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Luiz, the US has the lowest tax rates of just about any first world nation. Unless rich people plan to up and move to like Cambodia or something, your not going to get lower rates than the US even with what Sanders is proposing. Rich people aren't going anywhere. Are they gonna move to Canada where the tax rate is even higher?
     
  11. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish By any means necessary

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    You forget you're talking to the same person who considers the US men's national soccer team to be "a second rate team from a second rate country" despite the fact the country he immigrated from got their ass kicked by Germany 7-1 and the USA barely lost to Germany 1-0 in that same tournament. Furthermore if the USA is really "a second rate country" why did he come here? Not sure what he expected, but compared to Brazil we are excellent. In more ways than one. ;)

    edit: yes, he actually said that. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13349511&postcount=99

    I've been waiting quite some time to drop the counter-attack bomb and score yet another goal against Brazil for that comment. That would make the score 8-1. 8 years of Sanders and one year resistance.
     
  12. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    While the US is a first-rate country, calling our soccer-team second-rate isn't a lie. The US doesn't care about soccer except the world cup. MLS is pretty bad, not gonna lie.
     
  13. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish By any means necessary

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    USA lost to Germany 1-0 in the world cup, and Germany had the very best team. Brazil lost 7-1 against Germany.

    It cannot be inferred our team was "second rate", even if the vast majority of Americans do not care about soccer.
     
  14. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    True, that's why as of now very very few people leave the US for tax reasons. In fact, the US attracts tge wealthy from other higher tax countries. My point was that if Sanders had it his way, the US would in fact have far higher taxes than Canada, the UK, or a plethora of other very nice countries. The dynamics would change, for sure.

    But all of this is hypothetical, because Sanders stands as much chance of winning as the US does of winning a world cup (in honor of the kid below). :p

    Look, kid. I'll indulge your trolling. Clearly you wouldn't recognize a "soccer" ball if it was put in front of you, but football doesn't work like that. If the US loses by 1 goal to Germany and another team loses by more, that doesn't mean the US is better. During the WC Germany had some pretty bad performances against mediocre teams, then beat Argentina. That doesn't mean those teams are better than Argentina. There is no transferable property in football - that's something fans of the sport learn when they're about five. In every given championship the best teams will some times tie with some bad teams, or even lose, and then proceed to beat some of the best ones and claim the title. That doesn't make those bad teams who got a tie better than the good teams that lost. I understood that when I was five - do you understand it now?
    Brazil sucks right now, but it has 5 titles, the US has zero. A single Brazilian player is worth more than the entire US team. One humiliating defeat doesn't change that. The last time that Brazil played the US, just a couple months ago, the result was Brazil 4 x 1 US. So yeah, the WC notwithstanding, I'd say Brazil is the better team, even though it is in pretty bad shape.

    BTW, I never said the US was a second rate nation. It is the richest, most powerful nation in the world, and also one of my favorite places (despite a weird abundance of insecure and ignorant people like you, who think you have to be the best at everything). But I live in France now. Not because I got tired of the US, just because I could use a change for personal reasons.

    I said the US has a second rate football team. Which is true. According to anyone who knows the first thing about the sport ( so not you). The MLS is worse than second division tournaments in the main football nations. Americans usually can appreciate objective metrics, so just take a look at the total valuation of the US team and compare it with teams that are considered first rate. Voilà.

    The US is of course the greatest sport power in the world, and has the very best athletes in stuff as diverse as basketball and swimming. But it's not the best, nor even top rate, when it comes to football, which is not even that popular there. If this assertion offends your hillbilly patriotic sensibilities, well, grow up.
     
  15. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish By any means necessary

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    The truth is Brazil never belonged in the Semi-finals to begin with, and several controversial calls in Brazil's favor were made to make sure they would go that far. Brazil getting knocked out of the tournament early on would have been an absolute disaster for FIFA, both because they would have lost a hell of a lot of money in ticket sales and because Brazil is/was politically unstable, and people were already outraged about the money spent on the stadium. Brazil's team in 2014 SUCKED. Period. I don't care how much the players are "worth". Perhaps their "worth" is based on hype coming from people like you.

    Brazil has a history of winning the world cup much more than the USA, that much is true. This is about current teams, not past teams. The Cowboys have won lots of superbowls and panthers have won 0, but I'd put the current Panthers team over the Cowboys any day of the week. No one would defend the USA's overall track record against Brazil's I was comparing them exclusively based on 2014 world cup performance. Learn to read. :rolleyes:

    BTW, I never said the US was a second rate nation. It is the richest, most powerful nation in the world, and also one of my favorite places (despite a weird abundance of insecure and ignorant people like you, who think you have to be the best at everything). But I live in France now. Not because I got tired of the US, just because I could use a change for personal reasons.[/QUOTE]

    Not that I can blame you for moving to France- their tax policies are far superior to the US.

    I said the US has a second rate football team. Which is true. According to anyone who knows the first thing about the sport ( so not you). Americans usually can appreciate objective metrics, so just take a look at the total valuation of the US team and compare it with teams that are considered first rate. Voilà.
    [/QUOTE]
    Historically, the US has a second rate football team. In the 2010 world cup, they were good. Not great, but good. Brazil's team was worse than good.

    The US's men's team fluctuates year to year. They were good in 2014 but they seem to have gotten worse since then. If you look at US soccer for the past 50 years they are terrible. Again, this was only about their performance in the 2014 world cup.

    Spain historically has a decent team, for example but they were not decent in that world cup.
     
  16. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Brazil's worse than good team was more than enough to soundly beat the US, which it in fact did in September this year (4 x 1). And if they played during that WC, odds are Brazil would beat the US as well. The current Brazilian team is much better than the current US team, even if it's not a great team.

    It's OK, buddy. The US has a better basketball team, better swimmers, better tennis players, better runners... But you have worse football players.

    You don't evaluate the quality of a team based on just a couple matches. You can't say Spain or Brazil don't have "decent" teams because they got sucky results at one WC - that you think that's the case indicates you have no familiarity whatsoever with the sport. Which is OK too, I'm sure you know more American football than I do. But you don't know football football.
     
  17. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish By any means necessary

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    Like I said, I only meant at the 2014 world cup. America's team has gotten worse since then, and I'd imagine Brazil has gotten better. It wouldn't surprise me if Brazil's team has not only gotten better, but much better since then. I've watched every world cup since I was little (1998 was the first I remember) and Brazil's team has not been nearly that bad as they were in 2014. That year was probably a fluke, but nonetheless, they had a bad team that year. USA's team was not great, certainly not a contender to go all the way, but arguably good enough to make the semi-finals. I can name several teams that should have been in the semi-finals that year instead of Brazil, and the only reason Brazil made it that far is because of the refs making terrible calls in their favor. Then when they faced Germany (best team in the league) the quality gap between the two teams was so huge that there was nothing they could do anymore.
     
  18. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    The thing is, only watching World Cups will leave you with a very incomplete understanding of the sport. Brazil sucked in 2014, but the Germany match was still a complete fluke.

    And again, you can't say Brazil doesn't have a "decent" team because of a few bad matches. I can say the current Brazilian team is in bad shape because I follow it closely, and it has disappointed in many other occasions besides the WC. But it's still way better than the US team, and it was better during the 2014 WC and during any point since 1900 - which of course doesn't mean Brazil will will every time they play, just most. I remember watching Brazil lose to freaking Honduras, by 2 x 0 no less. Just a few months afterwards it went on to claim the 2002 WC. Welcome to the world of football.

    Again, don't take this as an insult against your country, which I like a lot.

    But if you want to know why the US is not first rate in football, just watch the MLS.
     
  19. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    What are some of the examples of the extreme views?
     
  20. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    He wants to shut down corporate tax loopholes. That, in the US, is called "extreme".
     

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