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Why Bernie Sanders should be president

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Lawn_Donuts, Dec 25, 2015.

  1. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    Executive Orders aren't a complete replacement for actual legislation, especially with a court system that will almost certainly be hostile to his agenda.

    I don't think Sanders supporters are dumb either, but I do think they are being overly optimistic/idealistic about how legislation will/can actually be created in 2016.
     
  2. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    It doesn't help that right now both countries basically have socialists in power.
     
  3. metalhead

    metalhead Angry Bartender

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    There is nothing in his agenda he can accomplish legally through executive order. About the only thing he can do is strict regulation of banks, but he wants to break them up.

    His supporters aren't dumb, but they tend to be naive and ignorant of how things work.
     
  4. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    'How things work' is not set in stone, and given you have elections maybe that is the time to express how you want things to work? :)

    Corruption in politicians is killing whole countries by now. More of the same won't change anything.
     
  5. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    It may make sense to vote for a president with little to no legislative support, but only if the issues you care about are things that the executive alone can do or refrain from doing.

    You cannot pass huge new programs without legislation, and can certainly not raise taxes as Sanders wants, but you can make major changes to regulations which legislation empowers.

    Most of the rules today are not laws but regulations made by executive agencies to whom such authority is delegated by law. The law rarely says that the agency must regulate or punish specific acts, but simply enables it to do so. A president who wants more regulation could order stricter enforcement, but only within prescribed limits. A president who does not like such regulations could almost entirely suspend them during his term in office.

    A president who really opposed the war on drugs or in general convictions for nonviolent offenses could order Federal law enforcement to make such investigations and prosecutions the lowest of low priorities. He could also pardon everyone who had ever been convicted of such crimes on day one, and continue to pardon any more if someone in the FBI doesn't follow his new priorities. Of course, that only applies to those convicted under Federal law. He could not free those charged under State laws. A Ron Paul like character who cares about states rights however would not wish to do that anyway though.

    The president cannot appoint judges etc without Senate approval, but he he does not mind the office remaining vacant he can just keep suggesting candidates he knows the Senate would refuse until they get tired and eventually approve one. There is no way for Congress to force on him any appointees of whom he does not approve. When congress is not in session he can make temporary appointees for some positions, like GWB did for Ambassador Bolton.

    As commander in chief, a president could order the immediate withdrawal of our forces from anywhere or everywhere abroad. That would legally be much easier to do without Congressional support than would deploying them into new combat zones, yet presidents have done that frequently. Destroying or retrieving all the military equipment might however still be expensive enough that without congress budgeting for it they might have to leave arms behind to be captured by the enemies.


    The veto is a major tool for blocking any legislation the president does not like. It can be overridden by large enough majorities, but that can be quite a hassle. Presidents can wield much more power if they are willing to threaten vetoes more often, and follow through with their threats.

    Speaking of threats, a president could theoretically threaten to use any of his other powers as leverage against a veto override. Maybe even violent criminals could get pardons, if they live in the districts of congressmen who oppose the president's agenda...
     
  6. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Hey Mr Produce of South American Political Corruption, Bernie is aiming for Scandinavia - which is pretty much the antithesis of corruption atm. He states it basically everywhere. You might want to, you know, educate yourself with affairs superficially at least.

    EDIT: That was exceptionally snarky. I apologize. But it's weird that you throw up Venezuela randomly like that when Sanders, well, isn't talking about Venezuela at all, and I don't honestly think Venezuela is appropriate to draw in. The two cultural situations are quite different, even if America is a melting pot compared to Scandinavia, it's still part of the Anglosphere, as is Scandinavia.
     
  7. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    I'm sorry Kyriakos but I'm sick and tired of people reducing the Scandinavian countries to oil (when I mention the example of Scandinavia to people, they go BUT DENMARK AND NORWAY HAS OIL, well, Sweden doesn't have oil, and they're pretty much doing as good as Denmark and Norway). Stop it.

    Additionally the euro socialism thing isn't making sense, neither does Finlands "vassalhood". All Scandinavian polities, including Finland, and Iceland too (they have completely recovered from the crack at this point), are doing exceptionally well while having a comparably high standard of living across all social layers.

    EDIT: In fact if you want to talk raw materials as basis for prosperity, it doesn't really hold up here in the cold north. Beside the oil, which is relevant but doesn't explain the whole situation, Denmark is all agriculture and fishing, we have no relevant raw materials on land except the land itself. Additionally, our climate is comparably cold, so it's really really difficult for us to compete with Southern Europe. Yet we still prosper. Some reasons are the extremely low corruption, the comparably large wealth redistribution (which keeps demand up). But then there's our complex industry, stuff like advanced plastics, windmills, hearing aids, insuline products, we do really well at that, infact our service economy is really strong too. A huge part of it is the free education and support all through university so we have plenty of well-educated people to hire. And very few move out of Denmark afterwards, partly because people don't really want to leave their friends when they live in a stable society (contrary to Syria where people are willing to leave their friends for a number of reasons), and because they want to secure a surefire future for their kids. That's what explains the high degree of welfare and the strong economy. Saudi Arabia has oil too, in fact quite a bit more than Denmark does, but fails in so many other areas. Oil doesn't mean squat without a proper society to structure and shape the wealth properly. Now, think of this situation in Denmark - where we pretty much live off a high educational standard and advanced businesses - and overlay it on the US which actually has the natural resources to sustain such an economy even more. Danish industry specializes itself to survive because we don't have iron here, nor do we really have stuff like shipbuilding facilities anymore because of capable competition.

    EDITEDIT: That's Denmark's situation. Heavy industry, which is impossible in Denmark due to capable competition with raw materials, is more possible in Sweden and Norway, yet Norway is colder and Sweden is too, other than the region near Scania.

    EDITEDITEDIT: Don't misunderstand me, the US are doing okay. They can do better. Wealth redistribution to increase demand serves all of society. No wealth redistribution is terrible for an economy. It needs the fluctuation of money to live and breathe.
     
  8. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    Sort of. It would be one thing if Sanders was saying "I am proposing very dramatic domestic reforms, and I'm going to need friends to help me advance my agenda when I'm President. Be sure to vote for Sanders-like Senators and Representatives, and we can ride a waive of Sanders Momentum to change Washington"

    That hasn't happened. Right now, there might be, at BEST, about a dozen US Senators who would be sympathetic to a Sanders agenda. There aren't a ton of Sanders-like candidates running for other offices. There's a pretty good chance Republicans will still control the US Senate, and a near certainty Republicans (and probably very conservative ones) will still control the US House.

    Sanders isn't actually a Democrat, and I'm not sure there is much reason to think he'll be able to cash in on a ton of goodwill from his party, and get everybody else to fall in line with policies that could be harmful to their careers, once he gets into office. If Liberals have been upset with the slow pace of reform under Obama, they're going to be devastated with a Sanders presidency.


    That might be true, but that certainly won't describe the appeal of a Sanders candidacy.
     
  9. metalhead

    metalhead Angry Bartender

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    "How things work" in terms of the extent of the president's power is set in stone, more or less. A president's war powers tend to be interpreted extremely liberally, but anything not related to war, the president can't do alone. Congress is necessary. Bernie has said he will not work with Republicans in Congress; his plan to retail politick his policies until Congress gives into him is not going to work.
     
  10. _random_

    _random_ Jewel Runner

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    I dunno, that's kind of the vibe I get from the "political revolution" talk. He's definitely hoping that he can use his enthusiastic support to get more Democrats in down the ballot, akin to what Obama did in 2008. Although since most congressional candidacies in 2016 are not that competitive, there's no way to guarantee they'd be the right sort of Democrat. And I don't see him out there stumping for e.g. PG Sittenfeld over Ted Strickland. In a best case scenario, I'm not sure how much he could get things off to a good start at this point. He might encourage people to light fire under assess in 2018 and start electing more left-wing congressmen even primarying opponents against moderate democrats, but I dunno how effective that could be, even in a dream scenario.

    But I'm a naive optimistic youngster, so I'm still gonna vote for him and probably for the sleazy PCC member who currently represents me in the House and hope for the best.
     
  11. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish By any means necessary

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    It's a people's movement. If Sanders can get elected in the first place that means that people support him- and as such they will demand the rest out of the rest of the politicians. He's changed the future scope of american politics and has woken people up about real issues and what could happen. I think the other way around of you- even Sanders loses this election, the movement he created will live on, because people will remember the issues he campaigned on. Sanders is too old to run again after this election if he doesn't win this time, but others will replace him.
     
  12. Aea

    Aea Prince

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    Replace "Sanders" with "Paul" and it's Deja Vu to me.
     
  13. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    I think Sander's at least has a better chance of creating a long lasting movement. American politics has long been shifting leftwards and Sanders seems to me to simply be the next leftward step.
     
  14. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Aside from healthcare, also far less people below the poverty line, homeless, etc, you know, the stuff that is actually important. In the US the growth is mostly for people near the top, the people in the middle and bottom just get screwed, that is why there is growing social inequality in the States.
     
  15. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    People who talk about how great Europe is never seem to think about the negative sides, like almost 30% unemployment in Greece. If you just look at the countries that are doing good that's a very deceptive view of what is actually happening - Europe looks a lot more stable than it is, there are tons of problems, they're just split by countries. We all use the same currency, so countries that have a strong industry profit from countries that have a weak industry, that's why we in the north can look so healthy while Greece goes down the ****hole.

    If the south goes down (or finally manages to leave the Eurozone to start regenerating) then that's the end for North-European wealth as well.
     
  16. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    You think America isn't the same? The US has its own ugly realities that create its wealth.
     
  17. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    Yeah, that's kind of what I'm getting at here. Would a Senator Strickland be really in favor of the robust taxes or big domestic changes that Sanders would want? His previous political record doesn't indicate that. And if there are Sanders-like politicians running for Senate, or Gov, or other major positions this year, I don't know about them.
    Go ahead, I'm not saying don't vote for him. I just think that expectations for what he'd actually be able to do should be suuuuuper low.

    Maybe? I mean, that didn't happen with Obama, who is probably a more talented, and certainly way more charismatic politician than Sanders.


    American politics has been shifting left for a long time?
     
  18. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Oh, I'm not saying America is any better. Both regions have systems that are extremely inefficient at creating the "best possible situation" for the average citizen.

    I'm just saying that the North does not represent the overall situation of Europe and that the way Europe is set up severely influences what north-European countries can do.
     
  19. _random_

    _random_ Jewel Runner

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    Sittenfeld is the guy running in the primary to Strickland's left, but he seems like an even longer shot than Sanders. I can't say I follow statewide races outside of Ohio and Tennessee, but I trust you on this point.
     
  20. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    I'm talking in the long view of things. Since the beginning you know. And where have we gone from then? Universal sufferage, women's rights minority rights, the Progressives, etc. Liberalism will continue winning out because on a society wide scale it is more convenient.
     

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