Why can’t we get a leader for Egypt to look like a Black African?

[ifasola]

The Egyptians was Black Africans they rarely mix with other groups true they were sometimes lighter than Nubians who are known to be Jet Black. Italians are darker than Germans yet we know them both Caucasian. I know a lot of light skin Black people with strong Black feature that no one would call mix or biracial. Just like all other races there are extremes and does who don't have the extremes doesn’t take away from them who clearly belong to that race . Just like a dark haired German doesn’t mean he had to have Asian or African mix due to the idea that blonde hair is one of the signs of usually having strong Caucasian blood line. North African was as dark as the rest of African up until the Greek invasion still all the great works of Egypt was already old before that change. When you use mix people to represent ancient African nations it’s like getting a modern Middle East looking Greek person and making it the face of the classical Greece, its dead wrong.

 

[Guandao]

If it makes you feel better, Egypt will probably get at least a second leader who was not of Greek background, like Hathshepsut or Ramesses II.

 

[ifasola]

If it makes you feel better, Egypt will probably get at least a second leader who was not of Greek background, like Hathshepsut or Ramesses II.

Thanks I wish they would do new leaders soon.

 

[Ikael]

Thing is, the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians is currently hotly contested, and is much open to interpretation since they represented theirselves as... green, red and blue-skinned people in their murals. Color symbolism > realism (for the Egyptians at least).

That being said, it is a pity that they took the most westernized Queen that Egypt ever had in order to lead Egypt (Cleopatra and her Ptolomean dynasty of Macedonic origin). I am pretty sure that previous Pharaons were darker than her, but I am not entirely sure that they were 100% black either, considering how modern Egyptians and Northern Africans looks nowadays (even when taking Arab ancestry into account).

 

[Zaarin]

Two points: A) Race is a modern concept. The Egyptians thought of themselves as Egyptian, not African or Black or any other category. To try to project racial thinking upon them is anachronistic. B) Genetic studies have shown that there is a strong continuity between Ancient and Modern Egyptians: Ancient Egyptians were a Mediterranean people most closely related to the Berbers and Nubians and also the people of the Middle East. In other words: they were "brown" skinned just like modern Egyptians. The Egyptians are not and were never "Black (i.e., Subsaharan) Africans." Attempts by Afrocentrists and Nordicists to claim the Egyptians are equally misguided, both because such racial projections are anachronistic and because the Egyptions were neither black nor white by the traditional definitions.

However, I agree with you that choosing a Greek for a civilization with 2000 years of autochthonous rulers is unfortunate. (Well, mostly autochthonous; there were the Hyksos and the Nubian dynasty, but those were brief interregnal periods before a return to Egyptian rule.) Also, Cleopatra wasn't "mixed" anything: she was 100% Macedonian thanks to generations of inbreeding.

 

[ifasola]

Two points: A) Race is a modern concept. The Egyptians thought of themselves as Egyptian, not African or Black or any other category. To try to project racial thinking upon them is anachronistic. B) Genetic studies have shown that there is a strong continuity between Ancient and Modern Egyptians: Ancient Egyptians were a Mediterranean people most closely related to the Berbers and Nubians and also the people of the Middle East. In other words: they were "brown" skinned just like modern Egyptians. The Egyptians are not and were never "Black (i.e., Subsaharan) Africans." Attempts by Afrocentrists and Nordicists to claim the Egyptians are equally misguided, both because such racial projections are anachronistic and because the Egyptions were neither black nor white by the traditional definitions.

However, I agree with you that choosing a Greek for a civilization with 2000 years of autochthonous rulers is unfortunate. (Well, mostly autochthonous; there were the Hyksos and the Nubian dynasty, but those were brief interregnal periods before a return to Egyptian rule.) Also, Cleopatra wasn't "mixed" anything: she was 100% Macedonian thanks to generations of inbreeding.

First of all the real land was call Kemet not Egypt if we want to really get into it. Asar was call “lord of the perfect Black” only after the invasion of the Middle East and later the Greek did the African that live in that region stop looking like the Nubians who are jet Black people. Look at a person from Sudan that how the whole area look before the first invasion. Today Egyptian says they have nothing to do with the Egyptian of the past. People kill me trying their best to not give credit to Black Africans there is too much information out there that a person who really want to do the research will see who they really was.

 

[MistyRonin]

Italians are darker than Germans yet we know them both Caucasian.

I'm not sure what are your sources but most Italians have at birth the same skin color as Germans, just that many have suntan which give them the olive-like look (same happens with Greeks, Spaniards or French).

Dark hair and eye color is more common in Mediterranean countries tho, but not too different from Germany or Poland.

I lived by the European Mediterranean about 60% of my life.

Just like a dark haired German doesn’t mean he had to have Asian or African mix due to the idea that blonde hair is one of the signs of usually having strong Caucasian blood line.

Most Germans have dark hair, actually brown is the most common hair color in Germany (you just need to check the Third Reich top tier, most of the leaders had dark hair).

Blond hair is only found in big numbers in Sweden and the areas around Scandinavia.



Could you please share with us the sources that say that Ancient Egypt inhabitants had black skin? Because I've never read anything like that (besides Nubian slaves of course).

 

[ifasola]

I'm not sure what are your sources but most Italians have at birth the same skin color as Germans, just that many have suntan which give them the olive-like look (same happens with Greeks, Spaniards or French).

Dark hair and eye color is more common in Mediterranean countries tho, but not too different from Germany or Poland.

I lived by the European Mediterranean about 60% of my life.



Most Germans have dark hair, actually brown is the most common hair color in Germany (you just need to check the Third Reich top tier, most of the leaders had dark hair).

Blond hair is only found in big numbers in Sweden and the areas around Scandinavia.



Could you please share with us the sources that say that Ancient Egypt inhabitants had black skin? Because I've never read anything like that (besides Nubian slaves of course).

The moor invasion of Iberia and parts of Italy as well which give them a darker color. Some Spanish people and Italian people don’t like each other because of the color difference. Here is some scholars of Egypt being Black African as well some sources that may help some but the websites are not scholarly base. W.E.B. DuBois, Chancellor Williams, Cheikh Anta Diop, John G. Jackson, Ivan van Sertima Now can you give something sources that same anything different.?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis
http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/10/25/10-arguments-that-proves-ancient-egyptians-were-black/

 

[ifasola]

I'm not sure what are your sources but most Italians have at birth the same skin color as Germans, just that many have suntan which give them the olive-like look (same happens with Greeks, Spaniards or French).

Dark hair and eye color is more common in Mediterranean countries tho, but not too different from Germany or Poland.

I lived by the European Mediterranean about 60% of my life.



Most Germans have dark hair, actually brown is the most common hair color in Germany (you just need to check the Third Reich top tier, most of the leaders had dark hair).

Blond hair is only found in big numbers in Sweden and the areas around Scandinavia.



Could you please share with us the sources that say that Ancient Egypt inhabitants had black skin? Because I've never read anything like that (besides Nubian slaves of course).

The point I was making with Blonde hair was that Caucasians have their own extreme just like all other races yet when it come to Black Africans unless you have all the extreme features people like to argue if you really black or not there are Black and Brown Africans who have no other gene mixtures outside of African and some may be light or brown or have thin lips and noses.

 

[MistyRonin]

The moor invasion of Iberia and parts of Italy as well which give them a darker color. Some Spanish people and Italian people don’t like each other because of the color difference.

The Moor Invasion was made by few thousand soldiers that set themselves in the top tier, while the most of the Iberian peninsula's population remained the same (same as during the Visigothic invasions). And not to talk about what happened later with the expulsion of the "Moriscos" during the rule of the Catholic Kings.

You should visit Spain and Italy and you'll notice that is practically impossible to tell most of the people apart from central Europeans. And if you are really interested in the subject, you can check even genetic studies that prove the fact.

The point I was making with Blonde hair was that Caucasians have their own extreme just like all other races yet when it come to Black Africans unless you have all the extreme features people like to argue if you really black or not there are Black and Brown Africans who have no other gene mixtures outside of African and some may be light or brown or have thin lips and noses.

I'm not so sure what you mean. Starting from the fact that "races" is pretty much an old school concept, but yeah there are many shades of different colors, heck many Australian natives have dark skin and light hair, and in the areas around Iran many people have green eyes. The fact is that there are no sources that indicate that ancient Egyptians had a particularly dark skin, unlike Nubians for instance.

BTW one of the webs you comment talks about Egypt 6000BC, which is far before what we understand as ancient Egypt (about 3000 BC to 300 BC)

 

[ifasola]

The Moor Invasion was made by few thousand soldiers that set themselves in the top tier, while the most of the Iberian peninsula's population remained the same (same as during the Visigothic invasions). And not to talk about what happened later with the expulsion of the "Moriscos" during the rule of the Catholic Kings.

You should visit Spain and Italy and you'll notice that is practically impossible to tell most of the people apart from central Europeans. And if you are really interested in the subject, you can check even genetic studies that prove the fact.



I'm not so sure what you mean. Starting from the fact that "races" is pretty much an old school concept, but yeah there are many shades of different colors, heck many Australian natives have dark skin and light hair, and in the areas around Iran many people have green eyes. The fact is that there are no sources that indicate that ancient Egyptians had a particularly dark skin, unlike Nubians for instance.

BTW one of the webs you comment talks about Egypt 6000BC, which is far before what we understand as ancient Egypt (about 3000 BC to 300 BC)

The Moors rule Spain for over 700 years that why they had the Spanish Inquisition to wipe out any and all none Pink people and whomever was not a Christian. The Spanish Inquisition was (1478–1834) it took almost 400 years to try to wipe out what the Moors and others left behind. I was in the U.S. Army and was station in Germany for 2 years. I been to France and Spain by the way.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Spanish-Inquisition

 

[Metecury]

The moor invasion of Iberia and parts of Italy as well which give them a darker color. Some Spanish people and Italian people don’t like each other because of the color difference. Here is some scholars of Egypt being Black African as well some sources that may help some but the websites are not scholarly base. W.E.B. DuBois, Chancellor Williams, Cheikh Anta Diop, John G. Jackson, Ivan van Sertima Now can you give something sources that same anything different.?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis
http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/10/25/10-arguments-that-proves-ancient-egyptians-were-black/

What a bunch of nonsense, there are a few, very few, Italians with darker skin in the south but there is no racial tension whatsoever. Where on earth do you get your nonsense from?


Also Egyptians were not black, it is a myth that has already been busted mate, surely darker than a swede but no way resembling subsaharan Africans. Your claim that north Africans in Egypt were black until Ptolemy took over Egypt is laughable at best.





Go read a history book and something serious on genetics before spewing nonsense.

 

[MistyRonin]

The Moors rule Spain for over 700 years that why they had the Spanish Inquisition to wipe out any and all none Pink people and whomever was not a Christian. The Spanish Inquisition was (1478–1834) it took almost 400 years to try to wipe out what the Moors and others left behind. I was in the U.S. Army and was station in Germany for 2 years. I been to France and Spain by the way.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Spanish-Inquisition

If you look into detail it depends on which part of the Iberian Peninsula. Actually the Moors never ruled Spain (which is a political entity that was created by Philip V in 1716).

The only part where the Moors actually spent 700 years was in the Kingdom of Granada, and they represented only the top tier of the society. In other parts like in the Spanish Mark or Cantabric regions they spent less than 50 years or none at all (as some regions were never under Moor control).

You don't really seem to understand that in those invasions what changed was the upper class, not the population that simply adapted to whoever ruled over them. There was no racial profiling nor anything similar.

BTW the Spanish Inquisition, understood as the different Inquisitions in the countries of the peninsula were not focused in wiping out the "Moors", which were no more, but in witchcraft and other heresies.

Even those Moors who converted to Christianism were evicted in 1609 by a Philip III of Castile and II of Aragon decree (more than 300,000 people, including one third of the Kingdom of Valencia).

 

[MistyRonin]

The moor invasion of Iberia and parts of Italy as well which give them a darker color. Some Spanish people and Italian people don’t like each other because of the color difference.

A bit offtopic but I'm really interested in that. I actually studied for a couple years Anthropology in a Spanish University and never heard anything about it, nor in many years living in Madrid, Toledo, Cartagena, Barcelona and Torrelavega.

Care to elaborate?

The only "ethnic" tensions I know about are between Castilians versus other Spanish nations like Catalans or Basques, and in a really small numbers with the Moroccan / African immigration since the 1960s.

 

[ifasola]

A bit offtopic but I'm really interested in that. I actually studied for a couple years Anthropology in a Spanish University and never heard anything about it, nor in many years living in Madrid, Toledo, Cartagena, Barcelona and Torrelavega.

Care to elaborate?

The only "ethnic" tensions I know about are between Castilians versus other Spanish nations like Catalans or Basques, and in a really small numbers with the Moroccan / African immigration since the 1960s.

Here is some sources to look at and we can always have a discussion on it more in depth.
Christendom was the main force that lead to a racist Europe it start as a way to protect themselves from invasion but just like the USSR once they became powerful they became a force of conquest. It okay to love your race and I do understand the worldview of other groups but once you use it to hate or to destroy other races is a crime against humanity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6KQsMjCkbc

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/06...african-presence-medieval-renaissance-europe/

http://www.taneter.org/moors.html

 

[MistyRonin]

Here is some sources to look at and we can always have a discussion on it more in depth.
Christendom was the main force that lead to a racist Europe it start as a way to protect themselves from invasion but just like the USSR once they became powerful they became a force of conquest. It okay to love your race and I do understand the worldview of other groups but once you use it to hate or to destroy other races is a crime against humanity.

I'm afraid those sources are really weak. I could refer for instance to the Aragon Crown Kings main four chronicles (written at that time, so the didn't give a dime about being PC), that depict the Aragonese / Catalan part of the "reconquista", and say nothing about "black" moors.

And I really don't understand what do you mean by a racist Europe, and why do you even mix it with Christianity. I assume you are aware that during the first thousand years of Christianity there were already people from different skin color that became Christian. Religion has always been a political tool and excuse to invade others, but I see no connection with racism.

BTW I don't love any race, nor hate any. I don't even think about the World in that terms.

 

[Metecury]

Here is some sources to look at and we can always have a discussion on it more in depth.
Christendom was the main force that lead to a racist Europe it start as a way to protect themselves from invasion but just like the USSR once they became powerful they became a force of conquest. It okay to love your race and I do understand the worldview of other groups but once you use it to hate or to destroy other races is a crime against humanity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6KQsMjCkbc

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/06...african-presence-medieval-renaissance-europe/

http://www.taneter.org/moors.html

Please tell me you are trolling and do not seriously consider those "sources" as legitimate and informing. This is beyond comical.

Moderator Action: Please be careful here. Accusing someone of trolling is regarded as trolling under our rules.

 

[ifasola]

I'm afraid those sources are really weak. I could refer for instance to the Aragon Crown Kings main four chronicles (written at that time, so the didn't give a dime about being PC), that depict the Aragonese / Catalan part of the "reconquista", and say nothing about "black" moors.

And I really don't understand what do you mean by a racist Europe, and why do you even mix it with Christianity. I assume you are aware that during the first thousand years of Christianity there were already people from different skin color that became Christian. Religion has always been a political tool and excuse to invade others, but I see no connection with racism.

BTW I don't love any race, nor hate any. I don't even think about the World in that terms.

If they so weak then give a rebuttal to each point. I never said Christianity I said Christendom which you don't know anything about it was the political agenda of European country under the Pope that encourage them to conquer none Pink and none Christians. Please do a lease a google search before trying to dismiss stuff you have no knowledge about.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

We don't really have a good idea what Ancient Egyptians looked like. Their art made a sharp contrast between red-toned Egyptians, black-toned Nubians, and light-toned Syrians, but that's not much to go off of. (We have a decent idea what Ancient Greeks looked like; see the Fayum portraits.)

With that in mind, if I were depicting an Ancient Egyptian leader like Hatshepsut or Ramses in a Civ game, I would probably portray the leader as looking like a modern Egyptian. Not a perfect solution, and Egypt obviously changed quite a bit in the intervening three thousand years, but I think that's probably our best and fairest guess.

 

[MistyRonin]

If they so weak then give a rebuttal to each point. I never said Christianity I said Christendom which you don't know anything about it was the political agenda of European country under the Pope that encourage them to conquer none Pink and none Christians. Please do a lease a google search before trying to dismiss stuff you have no knowledge about.

I'm afraid we have different definitions of what Christendom is, to me it's:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Christendom

BTW when you mean European country, which one of them do you refer? And at what time? And if possible what Pope?

Another subject is that popes promoted different wars, many between European countries, for example the Thirty Years' War, where the Pope encourage Catholics to conquer Sweden (which I guess that Swedes are "pink" in your eyes).