Why can AI attack my city states with impunity?

[gunnergoz]

It disappoints me that there is no dialog in the diplomatic part of the game to discuss and complain about other civs attacking city states I have an interest in or to which I am Suzerain. You would think this would be present but it seems not to be. All you can do is declare war and that is often outrageously expensive in game terms, especially when you have a series of these hostile annexations by the AI. There should be some way to negotiate or make demands that escalate into war in gradual steps that do not cost as much as a declared war. Sometimes I invest a lot of energy in becoming and keeping suzerain to key city states, and then the AI just waltzes over and takes them, sometimes all the way across the map from me. Ticks me off no end. The game should allow for real diplomacy, with embargoes and trade wars on states that go rogue and try to annex CS's.

 

[Leyrann]

...Protectorate War?

 

[Rosty K]

...Protectorate War?

It doesn't always work, as far as I remember. Also, the AI in question will often be my friend or ally. OT: I think it should be there somewhere that friends/allies shouldn't perform (or should, but very reluctantly) openly hostile actions against each other, like attacking vassal City-States, forward-settling, culture-bombing and converting cities (of course they can and should spy, send envoys to wrong places etc at their pleasure), cause otherwise those friendships are just annoying.

 

[Victoria]

@gunnergoz said that @Leyrann ... We know this was released in a poor state and diplomacy is likely going to get an overhaul. This area is certainly one that could be enhanced considering the value of CS.
Give it time @gunnergoz and unfortunately a bit of money

 

[Jaybe]

cause otherwise those friendships are just annoying.

Would you want it so only the player can do those 'annoying' things but the AI could not? As a player I know I do such things; they aren't annoying (to me) when I do them.

 

[Victoria]

I have even done this by accident, taken a city state while allied to its ally. It would have been niced to be warned I was about to upset an ally but I gess the game expects us to always know. Lazy sod that it is.

 

[Rosty K]

Would you want it so only the player can do those 'annoying' things but the AI could not? As a player I know I do such things; they aren't annoying (to me) when I do them.

Well, maybe I went over the top with other things, but attacking the CS allied to your ally should not be allowed for me too, not just for the AI. Like if you really want to do it, there should be some diplomatic preparation at least.

Like, I mean, it's not that Italy can just go and invade Monaco without having France's permission first

And right now I can't even tell them to leave my ally CS alone (and if it's a friend/ally, I can't even denounce them), so there's sort of no way of telling them I don't like it even.

 

[Victoria]

so there's sort of no way of telling them I don't like it even.

Oh th AI knows... The diplomatic_modifiers.csv will show you as have -8 for being at war with their ally (I think)

 

[MrRadar]

All you can do is declare war and that is often outrageously expensive in game terms, especially when you have a series of these hostile annexations by the AI. There should be some way to negotiate or make demands that escalate into war in gradual steps that do not cost as much as a declared war.

Sometimes, there might be another solution - if you have some spare units, you can surround the CS and prevent the AI from taking it.

Like, in one of my continent games, where I was Victoria and very much coastal, and had the luck to have Auckland in the vicinity and become its suzerain, my very dear friend and the only ally in that otherwise mostly hostile world - Scythia - decided, it was good sport and fun to go and annex it into the Greater Scythia. I was desperate - despite the valiant resistance, Auckland's defenses were failing, and it was becoming clear that I was about to kiss a tearful good-bye to all those neat cogs from the sea.

But then it dawned on me - I'll send in the peacekeeping task force! The blue helmets! (Well, mostly the Redcoats in my case.) Turn after turn, I gradually surrounded Auckland with my Redcoats and Sea Dogs and scouts and whatnot, you only need six units after all, and in a while Scythia got the message and made peace with them. My vassal Auckland was saved. I was so proud of this achievement that I even sent my builder to repair their pillaged farms. The sea-cogs continued to pour into my economy unimpeded.

 

[The Highwayman]

When the AI does this, they suffer an egregious diplomatic penalty against me, somewhere around -100,000. My agenda doesn't stand for it.

 

[Leyrann]

When the AI does this, they suffer an egregious diplomatic penalty against me, somewhere around -100,000. My agenda doesn't stand for it.

We humans are a bunch of total sociopaths.

 

[gunnergoz]

@gunnergoz said that @Leyrann ... We know this was released in a poor state and diplomacy is likely going to get an overhaul. This area is certainly one that could be enhanced considering the value of CS.
Give it time @gunnergoz and unfortunately a bit of money

At my age (69,) time is not something trivially conceded. But I get your point. I'd love to see Civ 6 grow to have some actual diplomatic strategy in the next expansion, so interactions could be about more than just war, luxury exchanges and spying. The CS could be critical to this, especially if a world congress ("UN") is part of it. Civ V was getting there and I enjoyed that part of that game quite a bit. Civ 6 was a step back but hopefully, as you say, Sid & Firaxis will listen and do something about it.

Would you want it so only the player can do those 'annoying' things but the AI could not? As a player I know I do such things; they aren't annoying (to me) when I do them.

Absolutely. I don't often attack CS's in Civ 6, it is not my style. I try to maximize their utility to me in other ways. The AI too often sees them as expansion fodder, which is not ahistorical, just annoying when I have few remedies other than full-blown war with the aggressor.

Sometimes, there might be another solution - if you have some spare units, you can surround the CS and prevent the AI from taking it.

Like, in one of my continent games, where I was Victoria and very much coastal, and had the luck to have Auckland in the vicinity and become its suzerain, my very dear friend and the only ally in that otherwise mostly hostile world - Scythia - decided, it was good sport and fun to go and annex it into the Greater Scythia. I was desperate - despite the valiant resistance, Auckland's defenses were failing, and it was becoming clear that I was about to kiss a tearful good-bye to all those neat cogs from the sea.

But then it dawned on me - I'll send in the peacekeeping task force! The blue helmets! (Well, mostly the Redcoats in my case.) Turn after turn, I gradually surrounded Auckland with my Redcoats and Sea Dogs and scouts and whatnot, you only need six units after all, and in a while Scythia got the message and made peace with them. My vassal Auckland was saved. I was so proud of this achievement that I even sent my builder to repair their pillaged farms. The sea-cogs continued to pour into my economy unimpeded.

That is one solution, but hardly the best or most elegant. I actually used it quite a bit in Beyond Earth to save Stations from the AI. If you can afford an army of scouts devoted to surrounding your pet CS's fine, but that's not how the world works most of the time.

 

[Archon_Wing]

It's the Civ version of "come at me bro".

If you are the protector of a City State, prove it.

By the way, can you declare a protectorate war if the city state is dead already? You can still liberate it right, so....

 

[Rosty K]

It's the Civ version of "come at me bro".

If you are the protector of a City State, prove it.

By the way, can you declare a protectorate war if the city state is dead already? You can still liberate it right, so....

For the protectorate war it should be still alive, I believe (and you need to denounce the offender and the CS must survive long enough for the Casus Belli to be triggered. And it's not always triggered even like this, for some reason).

I feel there should be another Casus Belli - 'liberation', which kicks in if somebody has cities of a dead civ/CS. Maybe coming pretty late, like with Suffrage. Or is there one already?

 

[MrRadar]

That is one solution, but hardly the best or most elegant. I actually used it quite a bit in Beyond Earth to save Stations from the AI. If you can afford an army of scouts devoted to surrounding your pet CS's fine, but that's not how the world works most of the time.

Yes, I agree, but we must do with what's available for now. More diplomatic options, including protests, threats or ultimatums would be very welcome, no doubt about it.

You can still liberate it right, so....

Yes, but what if you poured a dozen or two of envoys in that city state? After liberation you'll only have three and some bastard will certainly snatch it from you in a turn or two.

 

[Locke_Daemonfire]

[QUOTE="Rosty K, post: 14800840, member: 299289"I feel there should be another Casus Belli - 'liberation', which kicks in if somebody has cities of a dead civ/CS. Maybe coming pretty late, like with Suffrage. Or is there one already?[/QUOTE]
There is a 'liberation' for liberating cities of a Civ that still exists. Doesn't work for dead ones though. I would support the idea, just needs another name.

 

[Victoria]

I feel there should be another Casus Belli - 'liberation', which kicks in if somebody has cities of a dead civ/CS.

The liberation CB is FANTASTIC. If you ally with people like I do, then there is always a liberation war out there to be had where one civ has taken another civs city. It is a free declaration with 0 warmonger points

 

[Jaybe]

The liberation CS is FANTASTIC

Typo alert (?): You meant CB for Casus Belli?

 

[gunnergoz]

Yes, I agree, but we must do with what's available for now. More diplomatic options, including protests, threats or ultimatums would be very welcome, no doubt about it.



Yes, but what if you poured a dozen or two of envoys in that city state? After liberation you'll only have three and some bastard will certainly snatch it from you in a turn or two.

It would be helpful if a "CS Liberation" CB would be added to the game that would award the liberating civilization six Envoys immediately upon liberation of the CS. That would reward liberators and thwart AI's that just opportunistically dump spare Envoys on newly liberated CS's.

 

[Rosty K]

The liberation CS is FANTASTIC. If you ally with people like I do, then there is always a liberation war out there to be had where one civ has taken another civs city. It is a free declaration with 0 warmonger points

I've never seen that appear for me though. Should I denounce the unfriendly AIs more often?

Though anyway, it seems like more often it's my friend who'll be taking somebody else's cities...