Why can't we liberate a city from a non-extinct civilization?

Martin79

Warlord
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but liberating is only possible when the city was previously a city-state, or it's part of an extinct civilization.

I don't understand why it's not possible to liberate a city from a civilization that still exist? It could make sense historically and (sometimes) strategically speaking.
 
Correct me if i'm wrong, but liberating is only possible when the city was previously a city-state, or it's part of an extinct civilization.

I don't understand why it's not possible to liberate a city from a civilization that still exist? It could make sense historically and (sometimes) strategically speaking.

I think you're right on this.

I also think you can only revive a dead civ if you capture their capital. I think if you choose not to bring them back at that moment, you lose the opportunity forever. Could be wrong though.

Another question: Why would you want to bring back a dead Civ if they are just going to hate you? Besides I guess the obligatory UN vote they have to give you.
 
I think you're right on this.

I also think you can only revive a dead civ if you capture their capital. I think if you choose not to bring them back at that moment, you lose the opportunity forever. Could be wrong though.

No, I liberated Nebuchadnezzar while keeping Babylon (which I captured from Siam) in one game. Though he then hated me for having his original capital, I think.

Yes, I find it irritating that you can't liberate it as an option when you enter the city, but as long as the civ's alive you can trade it to them in the trade screen.

Another question: Why would you want to bring back a dead Civ if they are just going to hate you? Besides I guess the obligatory UN vote they have to give you.

I haven't seen them hating me post-liberation in G&K with the new modifier, even when they were guarded around me before being wiped out. Now it seems an auto-DoF for the rest of the game, which can make them valuable for research agreements if they make enough cash (since they're very unlikely to be a threat technologically themselves). Also, you can use them as a bulwark or a distraction. In that (vanilla) game with Nebuchadnezzar Siam spent a lot of its energy and time trying to recapture the Babylonian city I'd liberated.

In the most recent game where I liberated a civ (England), I was able to give them Coventry (Hun-founded in this case) while the Huns were at war with me but not England, and would have taken the city next turn. The result was that the Hun army was kicked out of Elizabeth's borders, and delayed somewhat before Attila decided to declare war on her and recapture the city after all.

And yes, there's the diplo vote, which is a perfectly valid reason in itself.

But mostly for me it's a case of "why not?" I'll generally liberate a city I don't want, and who will I give it to if that civ's extinct? Plus it can be fun to liberate a civ and see whether it will be able to recover or re-expand (Liz lagged for the rest of that game, and had nowhere to expand to because - until Zanzibar captured and finally razed Coventry much later - there was no space left to expand, but London did end up as a pop 40 city and she was making nearly 100 gpt). I tend generally to prefer games in which most or all civs are still around at the end of the game, even if I have to liberate them to ensure it.

Since the AI post-G&K will sometimes liberate city-states, I wonder if they ever liberate extinct civs.
 
No, I liberated Nebuchadnezzar while keeping Babylon (which I captured from Siam) in one game. Though he then hated me for having his original capital, I think.

Yes, I find it irritating that you can't liberate it as an option when you enter the city, but as long as the civ's alive you can trade it to them in the trade screen.
Ah, thanks for the clarification.


I haven't seen them hating me post-liberation in G&K with the new modifier, even when they were guarded around me before being wiped out. Now it seems an auto-DoF for the rest of the game, which can make them valuable for research agreements if they make enough cash (since they're very unlikely to be a threat technologically themselves). Also, you can use them as a bulwark or a distraction. In that (vanilla) game with Nebuchadnezzar Siam spent a lot of its energy and time trying to recapture the Babylonian city I'd liberated.

And yes, there's the diplo vote, which is a perfectly valid reason in itself.

But mostly for me it's a case of "why not?" I'll generally liberate a city I don't want, and who will I give it to if that civ's extinct? Plus it can be fun to liberate a civ and see whether it will be able to recover or re-expand (Liz lagged for the rest of that game, and had nowhere to expand to because - until Zanzibar captured and finally razed Coventry much later - there was no space left to expand, but London did end up as a pop 40 city and she was making nearly 100 gpt). I tend generally to prefer games in which most or all civs are still around at the end of the game, even if I have to liberate them to ensure it.

Since the AI post-G&K will sometimes liberate city-states, I wonder if they ever liberate extinct civs.

I haven't liberated them since G&K so I didn't realize the mechanic had changed. I just remember in Vanilla liberating a civ only to have them absolutely hate me.

The diplo vote is worth-while but I generally avoid diplomacy victories, they just seem to easy for me and kind of cheesy when it often comes down to who has the most money.

As for the buffer zone, that's totally legit. But for me, I don't usually do it just for a why not factor. I'm the total opposite, I'm more happy the more AI's get knocked out of the game because I find it more fun/challenging to face a few big Civ's than a bunch of little ones. Difference of opinion on that, though.

Edit: Haven't seen them liberate a dead civ. Also, do you still get all the negative modifiers (they covet your land, you have contested borders, etc) when you liberate a dead civ that you used to get if you bordered them or keep some of their cities?
 
i wonder what diplomacy benefits you can get if any if you just give the city back to them through the trade window. that should be a big boost for friendship. doubt ill try it but it sounds interesting.
 
Ah, thanks for the clarification.




I haven't liberated them since G&K so I didn't realize the mechanic had changed. I just remember in Vanilla liberating a civ only to have them absolutely hate me.

There's a "you restored them from annihilation" modifier, which is a permanent strong positive, now.

Though they will always ask you, the turn after liberating them, why you have a large number of units in their territory...

The diplo vote is worth-while but I generally avoid diplomacy victories, they just seem to easy for me and kind of cheesy when it often comes down to who has the most money.

If you're playing them as intended, they very rarely do come down to who has the most money. You can get a maximum of about 90 influence from money per CS per turn (with 1000 gold), and if a rival courts them game-long that won't be close to enough. In my current game I have over 400 influence with Warsaw, very little of that from gold spending - I've spent more gold on Sidon (under 300 influence). I no longer need anything close to that level of influence because Austria decided to declare war on me and bought her own CSes, so can't possibly get any votes from CSes or take them back however much money she has, but if this were a more 'open' game with more rivals, or a peaceful game, she would have no hope of buying the CSes from me despite her huge lead in the gold department. Money (and coups) only make a real difference if everyone's focusing on CSes at the last minute, and so no one has much more than the minimum influence needed to ally CSes. But that doesn't often happen in G&K, since AIs also realise that you need to complete the quests.

Also, while you almost always need some CSes for diplo victories (unless most of the CSes have been taken out), you still often have situations where a civ rather than a CS will have the deciding vote - in that game where I liberated Elizabeth, I did indeed win diplo victory (which required 7 votes by that point) by getting exactly 7 votes - largely because my rivals' first response to my building the UN was to capture Jakarta, and attack all my other CS allies (ineffectually, as it happened). So if I hadn't liberated her I wouldn't have won, at least in that round, and without having to invest more in CSes (or finding a way to liberate Jakarta).

As for the buffer zone, that's totally legit. But for me, I don't usually do it just for a why not factor. I'm the total opposite, I'm more happy the more AI's get knocked out of the game because I find it more fun/challenging to face a few big Civ's than a bunch of little ones. Difference of opinion on that, though.

I like to play heavily diplomatic games, so the more factions there are, the better (and of course this is another advantage to a liberated civ - if you DoF them, and other civs also DoF them, you strengthen your own ties with more important civs than the one that's liberated. They can also strengthen the effects of your denouncements with their own denouncements of your enemies - who, since you liberated them in the first place, are likely to be mutual). Having a one-city civ doesn't prevent another civ becoming the runaway.

EDIT: Also, I always find larger maps more challenging than smaller ones, so I'm not sure the "few big civs" theory holds. I'm in a duel map game on Immortal in which Austria's making an effort, but if anything it's less challenging than most of my Emperor games on larger maps. Fewer civs competing for Wonders, less variation in tech paths means I'm more likely to get the techs I beeline before the competition, fewer rivals to spy on - and, yes, fewer enemies to denounce me and reinforce each other's dislike.

Edit: Haven't seen them liberate a dead civ.

Me neither, but then I've only very recently seen them liberate CSes, and only twice so far.

Also, do you still get all the negative modifiers (they covet your land, you have contested borders, etc) when you liberate a dead civ that you used to get if you bordered them or keep some of their cities?

I haven't the two times I have liberated civs in G&K (although I did share borders), but from recollection neither of those civs contested my borders beforehand, so I don't know if this has changed or if it's just a case of those particular civs not having those modifiers with me. Elizabeth did lose the 'Warmongering menace to the world' modifier I'd earned with her after declaring early war on the Huns (before they attacked her, and in response to their attack on Kuala Lumpur).

i wonder what diplomacy benefits you can get if any if you just give the city back to them through the trade window. that should be a big boost for friendship. doubt ill try it but it sounds interesting.

You get a "We traded recently" modifier, but I don't know how strong it is and I doubt the AI distinguishes between giving back their recaptured city and giving them a new city you took from someone else.
 
There's a "you restored them from annihilation" modifier, which is a permanent strong positive, now.

Though they will always ask you, the turn after liberating them, why you have a large number of units in their territory...

Liberated three Civs last night (1 of them multiple times) and oddly enough I didn't get this message. My troops stayed in their borders and I didn't get a message of any kind from the resuscitated AI.

In my game it proved to be incredibly useful as a distraction as well. I don't typically maintain a large army so I can't afford to attack on two fronts and defend at the same time. Bought me precious turns as Spain and the Celts focused on re-conquering the cities. Didn't get a complete break, but the force of their attack was not as strong and I was able to shore up my thin defenses while my offensive force razed their way back to my borders.
 
I was once going to bring back the Maya as they were a buffer between me and Grease before Grease killed them. But they still had classical age technology and would just get killed again so I reloaded and kept the city.

The liberating of city states doesn't seem to work as I thought they did. There's a column in the diplomatic victory screen that says "liberated" and has the city state icon. After liberating a city state I didn't see anything there. Also although I had a lot of influence with that city state afterwards it decayed as normal and eventually we were down from allied.
Doesn't seem like the liberator-liberated relationship is taken all that seriously.
 
sometimes a country expects to be greeted as liberators, but it turns out that the "liberated" people don't like them at all.

That's what I say when I want to convince someone to go somewhere.
"Come on, lets go to the Olive Garden. We'll be greeted as liberators!"
 
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