why cavs and no wonders in all guides and walkthroughs?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by totalwise, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. totalwise

    totalwise Chieftain

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    When i first started playing civ 5 I watched some youtube gameplay guides on civ 5. not building any wonders seems to be advocated strongly by these guides.

    I play the game in Prince mode, perhaps the no wonder and cav centric army is irrelevant in this game mode

    I've recently gone after temple of artemis. I think it's probably the most useful upgrade to get and the early production/growth bonus really propels you ahead of your rivals. I make sure I have a granary and worker out of the way beforehand and get the capital to produce temple of artemis as soon as it's available to guarantee i get it.

    I noticed ever since I've done that I've had a massive head start over other civs.

    Also. every guide recommends horses because they can evade death and build up xp./ I tend to play ottomans and never found the horses to be any good. They are bad at raiding cities and dont seem to have much strength against anything other than artially and archers. I found it better to focus military on archers. surround a unit and fire shots and kill it. The bonus being they dont suffer damage. When they get crossbowman they become infinitely better.

    I tend to have archers get extended range and double fire quite quickly. Sometimes I'll just go to war to build xp for these guys. Just declare way against neighbouring civ and stand with a row of archers to decimate anything that comes forward

    Maybe it's just that I only ever play ottoman and that I'm playing regular difficulty. Maybe in higher difficulties it will be required to drop all wonders and build cavs.

    Also I do get as many wonders as I can. Happiness, production, food & gold wonders I always get.
     
  2. totalwise

    totalwise Chieftain

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    the annoying thing about archers is that they lose their range when they becoming gattling guns. I don't even bother to use them after that - seems like a waste. I usually just garrison them into a city (make sure I have the zero cost for garrison and +1 happiness for garrisonsed units).

    I tend to play continents so my lategame focus is navy and aircraft.
     
  3. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    Can you cite what you're looking at? Horseman rushing went out in Vanilla a few years ago.
     
  4. bison21

    bison21 Warlord

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    Why don't you start a deity game and try building the Temple of Artemis?
     
  5. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    Wonders are nearly impossible to build without a tech lead on it, and it's impossible to get that on Immo/Diety until later in the game. The Temple of Artemis is available for the AI to build from Turn 1 (I think) due to the starting tech of Archery. With something like a flat 40% bonus to production as well, yeah, it's safe to say that the player can build that wonder ~0% of the time. Clearly though, it's one of the best Ancient Wonders in the abstract.

    On Horseman armies, they were made less powerful in a patch a few years ago, and have not gotten any better since. Sometimes a Unique Unit will show up, but otherwise, it's rarely worth it to build a Horse unit for any reason other than giving LOS to Siege units and capturing cities that were reduced to 0hp. Ranged units are the business unit for open field battle and city sieges both.
     
  6. totalwise

    totalwise Chieftain

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    are we talking about the same game here?

    Civ 5 brave new world?? what is deity?
     
  7. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    not sure what guides you've been reading, cavalry haven't been that good since Vanilla. Well they are still Ok as suporting units, just not as the main part of your army. Ranged units are generally the best damage dealers.

    most good guides shouldn't recommend "no wonders" either. Some wonders are definitely worth it, it's more about selecting the ones you need carefully and not going overboard. Even on higher levels you should at least go for a couple wonders most games.

    edit: seems you might not have the expansions? BNW is the newest expansion, there are 2 total (G&K and BNW).

    deity is the highest difficulty level.
     
  8. calyth

    calyth /bin/sh of a man

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    If you just click play now, from a fresh install, I think it defaults to 2 - chieftain.

    It goes from something like Settler, chieftain, warlord, prince, etc etc...

    I'm still mostly a lowly warlord player :cry:
     
  9. Espartafilardo

    Espartafilardo Chieftain

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    Re: building wonders: at the higher difficulty levels, the AIs get bonuses that allow them to finish wonders before you. You can get early wonders with luck and good play, but if it's a steep gamble, good players will advise you not to take the bait ... Temple of Artemis is useful, I agree.

    On Prince difficulty, I build whatever wonders I want -- seldom get beat to the finish -- the question is which ones are important for a given game.
     
  10. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I'm in the minority. I advocate going for at least a single wonder most of the time. It gives you civ some character. The oracle is a good choice unless Pacal is around. The trick is know which one to pick and that takes experience.
     
  11. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    I don't think you are the minority. Even on the higher levels, certain wonders that the AI prioritizes lowly can still be had, and are worth it. The Oracle and Pyramids come to mind.
     
  12. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    There is a game flaw too, if you go coastal you can almost always get colossus if you bee-line it.
     
  13. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    ah yes, the Venice special. True.
     
  14. szcott

    szcott Chieftain

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    I usually declare war on the first/closet city state I find and use it to farm xp for my archers and catapults and warriors. Get your warriors to 2x healing and your ranged units to +1 range first then logistics (x2 shots). Then upgrade to gatling/machine guns etc. they become some of the best land units. I play on Immortal and Deity and find this is about the best way to survive until you catch up in science.

    Declaring war on a CS before you meet anyone else carries no diplo penalties.
     
  15. Grogs

    Grogs King

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    Yeah, in some ways it's almost a different game at higher levels. I find that I can learn a lot watching someone skilled play deity, but a lot of the strategies they use can't be applied at lower levels. A lot of the guides tend to focus on higher level play because lots of people want to get better at the game and move up in difficulties. One of the things I learned in older version of Civ was breaking my 'wonder addiction.' Wonders can be really powerful, but it's a matter of risk vs. reward. If you give up a lot of things to try and get a wonder, and then fail, it can really hurt you.

    The other problem is that with 3 versions of the game, a lot of strategies in a guide written for one version won't be applicable to another. Make sure that whatever you're looking at is for the version you're playing, and preferably not too old.
     
  16. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    "What is deity?" Well, that explains the question. ;)

    Seriously though, this touches on one of my biggest complaints about Deity. It's not a harder game, it's a different game. This is primarily because of the free second city and the AI tech advantage in the early game. Any competent Deity player can be #1 in tech by t150, and be 10% ahead by t250, but the AI starts out with 4 free techs, quickly grows to about 6-8 free techs due to having a free settler, and then starts losing ground.

    One of the big side effects of this is that they can beat the player to any early Ancient Wonder they want, and most of the Classical Wonders. The tech disparity evens out a bit if you're playing well, but certain Medieval Wonders are still hard to get. Renaissance Wonders are a piece of cake if you're playing well, unless certain civs are the in the game who beeline certain tech paths.

    So, instead of Deity just being harder, it's different. Players learn to ignore certain Wonders. Great Library should be *hard* to achieve on Deity, not *next to impossible*.

    As an aside: The best solution to this, IMHO, without a complete mod, is to remove their second city and free techs, greatly boost their combat strength and greatly reduce their beaker, gold and hammer costs, which can all be done through XML. The end result is an AI that is *hard to keep up with*, but starts slower, so you have a 50/50 chance at early wonders if you chop forest and beeline tech, and makes it so that you will struggle to win before an AI achieves victory. The only downside to this is that super-early rushes are more effective, because you can cap an AI's only city if they don't prioritize a settler. However, I still think the game is more fun this way than on default Deity settings. But that's derailing this thread. :p
     
  17. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Thats pretty much why I dont play diety and dont get me started on The Great Library.

    I consider diety to be for when you have done everything you can and want to in the regular game, but still want to play and need a bigger challenge. People aspire to be diety players, but they dont really understand the game, they are just trying to copy what others have done and written about.
     
  18. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Agreed. I beat the game with every civ on either Emperor or Immortal before I got bored and switched to Deity for the challenge. However, I will say that 90% of Deity tips work on lower levels. I do find it fun to play HOF and GOTM on lower levels, because the challenge of going for the fastest time lets me discover new strategies. Even if they only work on lower levels, it's fun to play with. Like, fastest possible NC. My record is t30 *with GL*. (Shoshone) That was a fun one to think about.

    But, yeah, IMHO, Deity should be equivalent to playing on Prince against a skilled human opponent, without the annoyance of waiting for turns or the weirdness of simultaneous turns. This would be the Holy Grail of Civ for me. I hate the pitiful AI. :p
     
  19. NinjaGnat

    NinjaGnat Chieftain

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    I'd like to clarify that even on Deity, the AI does not get a direct bonus in hammers when building wonders.

    They just start with workers which have a speed bonus, a tech lead, a population growth and happiness bonus...

    Early game you're screwed, it's impossible to build wonders before the AI does. Once you've caught up in tech and infrastructure, the AI builds as slowly as you do.
     
  20. Arbooz

    Arbooz Chieftain

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