Why conservatives don't like marijuana

Narz

keeping it real
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Seems like the traditional conservative philosophy is that unearned pleasure will rot society. The value is in the human doing not the human being.

But marijuana gives pleasure for free, it helps you appreciate what you already have as opposed to fueling the covetous race for more.

In the overwhelmed, overworked and uninspired I can understand why it might instill a sense of apathy (towards the goals of business, in other words the ideals of feeding the economic machine that citizens have been fed as what creates their value) but I don't think the medicine itself is inherently anti-productivity (any more than a sane steady state economy centered around human flourishing is inherently anti-productive.

The idea that if you give someone a break they will become lazy and selfish is mostly wrong imo. Outside of a percentage of parasites (who ironically are heavily represented in the top tiers of society and perpetuate the culture of hard work as the highest ideal) I feel most people want to be useful to others, they just see their employment as neutral or even against true productivity).

I had this better organized in my head yesterday but anyway I think left leaning politicians should lean more heavily into this issue as the majority of people (@ least in usa) support its legalization including many who otherwise self identify as right wing.
 
I’ve always felt that the left/right wing views on drugs were ‘the wrong way round’. Right wing views on individual freedom, ‘no one tells me what I can / can’t put in my body’ etc. ought to suggest that they would be pro laxer drug restrictions. At least that seems to me?
 
When they finally get around to it, they write less onerous taxation and restriction. I super hope they come around before all the lefties do, or it will forever be one of those things you can't do for yourself, in your own space, on your own time, with your own resources without paying stupidly high rent for "we live in a society" and, functionally, that means "your happiness is ours, and we will have payment(per US Commerce Clause, the functional root of Federal power)*."

Pretty sure, after the past couple years, it does lower productivity. That was sort of the point, when the productivity was going to be anything other than healthy or sane. I don't know how to dress that up, it just does.

*I'm starting to decide that the primary reason nicotine is on the forbidden trail is that it's a highly effective antidepressant, smoked, chewed, vaped or whatever. And the health problems are a health problem, but the addiction is not - nobody cares about coffee. But those "rents" go to tobacconists/farmers/that supply chain. The educated IP lords are not going to brook the sustained competition on the health insurance and pharma profit streams.
 
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Conservatives in the US hated marijuana because it was more famously used by black musicians and by other people of color. They got little done about it until William Randolph Hearst bought a slew of paper mills. Hearst noticed that hemp (non-intoxicating marijuana) was being used for newspapers at a cheaper price than the tree-based paper produced by his new mills. So Hearst wielded his enormous media empire, decrying marijuana as a tool of the Devil, highly addictive, and leads to insanity. The public lapped it up, especially after the federal government released the infamous "Reefer Madness" movie in the mid-1930s. That's when pot got criminalized.
 
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Seems like the traditional conservative philosophy is that unearned pleasure will rot society. The value is in the human doing not the human being.

But marijuana gives pleasure for free, it helps you appreciate what you already have as opposed to fueling the covetous race for more.

In the overwhelmed, overworked and uninspired I can understand why it might instill a sense of apathy (towards the goals of business, in other words the ideals of feeding the economic machine that citizens have been fed as what creates their value) but I don't think the medicine itself is inherently anti-productivity (any more than a sane steady state economy centered around human flourishing is inherently anti-productive.

The idea that if you give someone a break they will become lazy and selfish is mostly wrong imo. Outside of a percentage of parasites (who ironically are heavily represented in the top tiers of society and perpetuate the culture of hard work as the highest ideal) I feel most people want to be useful to others, they just see their employment as neutral or even against true productivity).

I had this better organized in my head yesterday but anyway I think left leaning politicians should lean more heavily into this issue as the majority of people (@ least in usa) support its legalization including many who otherwise self identify as right wing.

this can explain an aspect of it, but there's a lot of "unearned pleasure" in the world conservatives generally accept.

i rather believe it's freedom from disgust, which is a sense of morality that's far more pronounced in the right. one i don't respect much, but let's go through it.

so I'm coming here from the pov of someone who has worked with transgressive art academically. some of the phrasings may be dry and unfortunate because of vernacular use. transphobia trigger warning. we'll get to that.

i'm also going to generalize about conservatives somewhat, and some may be annoyed with that. but understand that i'm talking about how the politics of disgust is generally more pronounced on the right, at least as a sense of morality.

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so, freedom from disgust. marijuana isn't disgusting, you might say, it's awesome. some people might find it disgusting, smelling weird or being unpleasant, but it's in the sense of me finding sugary sweets disgusting. kids finding brocolli disgusting. that's not how the disgust I talk about works.

freedom from disgust is about the freedom from having to be faced by the disgusting in the public space. eg., for the most part, people being naked in public is generally banned because of disgust.

a lot of what's disgusting really is only disgusting because it's unwelcome in a space, and because that space has presuppositions of what's welcome where. freedom from disgust is freedom from the weird and the grotesque, both modes of presence that work solely by challenging our ideas of normal phenomenons. the weird is when two things that aren't supposed to be together are. a giraffe in your backyard would be weird. the grotesque is when shapes are distorted from our sense of normal. someone with a hand the size of a leg.

conservative forces are all about what's the normal. stability, they say. they don't like to look at things that challenge the normal in their spaces, and because it's a sense of morality, they want the means to enforce the absence of disgust.

women with pants were weird. so they didn't like that. like, yes, they also didn't like it because it represented other forces they didn't like. but understand that when a conservative sees these things, aside from all other things, their reaction is disgust. it's primal, immediate, in the stomach. after women with pants has become commonplace, it loses its sense of weirdness. so now they don't care about it anymore. they've acclimated and focus on other things that disgust them. the giraffe in the backyard is weird to me too, i guess, but there's honestly probably a very practical reason it got there. it probably got out of an enclosure somewhere. it's literally not strange in practicality, but we feel the weird from it regardless. if something is weird for conservatives on a societal level, when their spaces are not guaranteed against it, they want enforcement to ensure this sense of freedom.

so, the grotesque. side rant on this. the grotesque is a pejorative in the vernacular, but i use it more as a mode of experience. and i really like it, both grotesque art, and philosophy of the grotesque. the grotesque is shapes that is close enough to be a phenomenon, but far enough from the shapes of that phenomenon to really be it at the same time. because we have a sense of phenonemons as natural, stable states, while they're really quite fluid. we have a sense of a kid, and a sense of an adult, neither are felt as grotesque, but they're both changing bodies, quite slowly, and are not concretely stable states. ie our sense of the grotesque is solely when we identify something that doesn't fall into our senses of stable phenomena, regardless of how it's actually rarely stable in practice. because stable states are not stable enough to never be challenged, we see it practically. when these states are challenged, we feel disgust. here's the kicker, and please bear with me with the phrasing - to the sense of the body where cis bodies are stable and normal, trans bodies are experienced as grotesque. trans bodies are of course very varied in expression, but often trans expression is often about using signifiers for stable phenomena of the cis body to, well, pass. but just because they're grotesque doesn't mean they're bad - we're all grotesque. i'd refer back to literally any cis body one experiences. all of them are not stable at all in the concrete. we're all walking bacteria farms in skin suits around flesh and bone. we always grow and change, all of our bodies are replaced over every few years. our bottom half is full of feces that we don't like. female mammals lay eggs inside themselves, it sounds like body horror, but it's a natural part of live birth. and that's the thing.

our sense of the weird and grotesque is near always evoked when the world is described as it actually is. it's when stable things are revealed not to be stable.

so some things challenge our notions of natural phenomena. to some, it makes them learn more about the world. it gives cause to introspection and progress. but to others, it feels innately wrong. and the latter - some conservatives hate that. because it just makes them feel bad. stay in your box!

progressive allies actually often feel immediate strangeness and even disgust about things they encounter. but instead of wanting it gone, they take a step back and consider whether it's hurting anyone. whether the phenomena should be felt as natural. their sense of disgust as a moral pillar is just much less pronounced - they have it, but to a much smaller degree. at the very least, they don't want the police involved in such things - or, like, don't want the ability to have the police involved.

again, there's people on the left that enforce disgust and people on the right that are fine having it - and some ideas of disgust are shared - but the pronouncement is still there. valuing freedom from disgust is just more present on the right. we have a lot of data on it. when you realize this, that a lot of behavior is ruled by disgust, what disgust is, and how it aligns with the right, it explains a lot of conservative behavior.

(and to me, i side with the left here. we're concretely colorful and strange beings. and i think freedom from disgust as a moral pillar is a bad one. the only credit i can give those people is that disgust isn't a nice feeling, but it's damning with faint praise. the world is not stable, so appeasing our sense of phenomenal stability will never work. i'd take a page from the right and tell them to grow up, to face the real world.)

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marijuana is something people find disgusting because it makes us strange. it makes us act in ways far from the sober state of being. it's the same with alcohol really, sugar for kids, binge eating during thanksgiving, but all that already has a place in social space. those practices are part of the stable normal. marijuana is a newer drug, therefore not "naturally" belonging to the space, therefore it shouldn't be there. therefore they'll work to have it gone.

a lot of this immediacy makes sense when you realize that it's not about practicality of the world, but about disgust. that marijuana destroys less than alcohol, that it's good business to legalize. a lot of conservatives don't care, because high people are not supposed to be there. people are not acting normally, it disgusts me, it should be gone. but, like. alcohol is concretely a drug. drunk people soil themselves, they're often loud and abrasive, they break into crying in ways that we connect with unreasonable babies, all breaking our supposition of adult behavior. all of this is mostly unacceptable in the public space, but people are just more... mentally lenient about it because drinking is such a normalized part of the public space. sure, we'll remove them and, if things get bad, get the police involved, but there's no broad political willingness to ban alcohol. and this is the difference. it's not weird, so it's not something conservatives generally push as a blanket ban.

the stance towards marijuana has been changing over the last few years, of course, but, like, it's because it's been slowly normalized, and people don't feel disgusted by it anymore. it's how this works.

*hits blunt*
 
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marijuana is despised by conservatives because it is culturally associated with black people and hippies. Modern conservativism doesn’t really have an underlying logic beyond pure ressentiment.
also in extension of my earlier post - forgot to bring it up - i believe the racial connection as to why they hate it is also connected to disgust.
 
i'm also going to generalize about conservatives somewhat, and some may be annoyed with that. but understand that i'm talking about how the politics of disgust is generally more pronounced on the right, at least as a sense of morality
I disagree w that. I think all humans are transfixed by the disgusting.

Take Trump for instance. How many tens of thousands of articles, video segments, etc and billions of dollars were made feeding into people's sense of righteous repulsion about the man, his words, attitudes and actions.

The left is popularly known for its outrage, being offended is quite similar to being digusted. Altho I see being triggered as a human trait, one that's higher profitable in our modern age.

We think we're pleasure seeking creatures but we also seek out anger, outrage and frustration because these are mobilizing forces. Bask in pleasure all day and eventually someone will beat you up and take your girl & your gold chain.

I do find MJ less predictable, you could say strange than alcohol, but it actually gives me a sense of rationality and curiosity, a sense that the world is a wonderous and curious place and human behavior (on an individual and group level) can be understood and can evolve.

I remember reading that a factor of the Renaissance (a contributor) is that society got better @ treating water therefore beer was no longer the safest liquid to consume. That combined w coffee/tea/caffeine being imported heavily from the indies and Americas basically meant many people's drug of choice switched (obviously many people continued to drink beer also).

The legalization of MJ, psychedelics and empathogens would certainly alter culture. Because of the unpredictable and potentially anti-consumerist potential of these drugs big business certainly isn't in a rush to push for this, at least not until they can make sure they'll be be able to control the market.
 
I disagree w that. I think all humans are transfixed by the disgusting.

Take Trump for instance. How many tens of thousands of articles, video segments, etc and billions of dollars were made feeding into people's sense of righteous repulsion about the man, his words, attitudes and actions.

The left is popularly known for its outrage, being offended is quite similar to being digusted. Altho I see being triggered as a human trait, one that's higher profitable in our modern age.

We think we're pleasure seeking creatures but we also seek out anger, outrage and frustration because these are mobilizing forces. Bask in pleasure all day and eventually someone will beat you up and take your girl & your gold chain.

I do find MJ less predictable, you could say strange than alcohol, but it actually gives me a sense of rationality and curiosity, a sense that the world is a wonderous and curious place and human behavior (on an individual and group level) can be understood and can evolve.

I remember reading that a factor of the Renaissance (a contributor) is that society got better @ treating water therefore beer was no longer the safest liquid to consume. That combined w coffee/tea/caffeine being imported heavily from the indies and Americas basically meant many people's drug of choice switched (obviously many people continued to drink beer also).

The legalization of MJ, psychedelics and empathogens would certainly alter culture. Because of the unpredictable and potentially anti-consumerist potential of these drugs big business certainly isn't in a rush to push for this, at least not until they can make sure they'll be able to control the market.
yes, disgust is a shared sense, but it's far more pronounced on the right. we actually have data on it, but it's been a while since i studied it and i no longer have access to the course files or my own notes. it's brain response stuff where people on the right more align with freedom from disgust. some people have tried to score cookie points on this fact; the right generally emphasizes more moral pillars than the left, and some argue that they're therefore more moral, but that's not how it works.

and no, outrage is not the same as disgust. outrage happens over things you don't find disgusting. disgust doesn't always cause outrage (or for that matter, actions with intent policy).

and sidenote, medieval beer and water as to safety of ingestion, it's... not quite true. city water was trash a lot of the time, but most people lived in the countryside. the idea that people drank beer instead of water is a myth.
 
We drank way more in the late 1700s through the early 1900s than we do now, still.
 
personally I object to putting anything into my lungs which is not oxygen.

but I don't know if you mean the smoke, or the oil which I don't know enough about but apparently it's medicinal.
 
Seems like the traditional conservative philosophy is that unearned pleasure will rot society. The value is in the human doing not the human being.

But marijuana gives pleasure for free, it helps you appreciate what you already have as opposed to fueling the covetous race for more.
Free? So at no time do its users ever have to buy it, or the materials or supplies to manufacture it?

In the overwhelmed, overworked and uninspired I can understand why it might instill a sense of apathy (towards the goals of business, in other words the ideals of feeding the economic machine that citizens have been fed as what creates their value) but I don't think the medicine itself is inherently anti-productivity (any more than a sane steady state economy centered around human flourishing is inherently anti-productive.
When my neighbors light up in the summer and the smoke and stench from their balcony wafts into my window (in summer), it most definitely negatively affects my productivity. Not because I'm high, but because it makes me sick. ANY kind of smoke will do that, and I don't appreciate being affected in such a way that it may lead to being unable to breathe and/or puking up my last meal. This is no exaggeration. And do not tell me to "just close the window." Summer is hot here. Closed windows can lead to heat-related medical issues (no AC in the building).

I had this better organized in my head yesterday but anyway I think left leaning politicians should lean more heavily into this issue as the majority of people (@ least in usa) support its legalization including many who otherwise self identify as right wing.
Hm. Valka, who has been a left-voting person all her life, abhors marijuana and legalizing it is THE prime reason she will never vote for the party that brought in legislation to legalize it, aka the Liberal Party of Canada. The company that owns this building I live in had to give some leeway for medical users, but it's in the lease that it can't be grown here. My housekeeping helper uses it in edible form, and that's fine... but if she ever starts smoking it, she is so fired.

I’ve always felt that the left/right wing views on drugs were ‘the wrong way round’. Right wing views on individual freedom, ‘no one tells me what I can / can’t put in my body’ etc. ought to suggest that they would be pro laxer drug restrictions. At least that seems to me?
You're confusing vaccines with recreational drugs. The current premier of my province sincerely believes that anti-covid vaxxers are the most-discriminated-against group of people she's seen in her entire life. This woman is BS!C INSANE.

so, freedom from disgust. marijuana isn't disgusting, you might say, it's awesome. some people might find it disgusting, smelling weird or being unpleasant, but it's in the sense of me finding sugary sweets disgusting. kids finding brocolli disgusting. that's not how the disgust I talk about works.
You might want to add "in my opinion" to that. I definitely find it disgusting. It's well beyond "unpleasant." I will celebrate if/when my neighbors move.

a lot of what's disgusting really is only disgusting because it's unwelcome in a space, and because that space has presuppositions of what's welcome where.
Sometimes disgust is wired into our evolution as a survival mechanism. Don't eat that disgusting thing or it will poison you.
 
You might want to add "in my opinion" to that. I definitely find it disgusting. It's well beyond "unpleasant." I will celebrate if/when my neighbors move.
reread what i wrote. i covered this in the part you quoted.
Sometimes disgust is wired into our evolution as a survival mechanism. Don't eat that disgusting thing or it will poison you.
yes, this is where it came from, and why it remains. and not all of our traits gained from evolution are good for us.
 
Hm. Valka, who has been a left-voting person all her life, abhors marijuana and legalizing it is THE prime reason she will never vote for the party that brought in legislation to legalize it, aka the Liberal Party of Canada. The company that owns this building I live in had to give some leeway for medical users, but it's in the lease that it can't be grown here. My housekeeping helper uses it in edible form, and that's fine... but if she ever starts smoking it, she is so fired.

So you don't hate marijuana, you hate breathing in second-hand smoke
 
When they finally get around to it, they write less onerous taxation and restriction. I super hope they come around before all the lefties do, or it will forever be one of those things you can't do for yourself, in your own space, on your own time, with your own resources without paying stupidly high rent for "we live in a society" and, functionally, that means "your happiness is ours, and we will have payment(per US Commerce Clause, the functional root of Federal power)*."

Pretty sure, after the past couple years, it does lower productivity. That was sort of the point, when the productivity was going to be anything other than healthy or sane. I don't know how to dress that up, it just does.

*I'm starting to decide that the primary reason nicotine is on the forbidden trail is that it's a highly effective antidepressant, smoked, chewed, vaped or whatever. And the health problems are a health problem, but the addiction is not - nobody cares about coffee. But those "rents" go to tobacconists/farmers/that supply chain. The educated IP lords are not going to brook the sustained competition on the health insurance and pharma profit streams.
Disagree on a few points but I really like "your happiness is ours" statement.

Taxes below item cost are a minimal imposition, it's always market + premium and doesn't drive growth of prices. Other than that, the more Democratic states have waaaay more liberal and free cannabis regulations than purple/red states. The West Coast isn't limiting growing operations to friends of the legislature.

Nicotine gets hate because it's so awful en masse to everyone else. Weed smoke doesn't hang like tobacco smoke, and doesn't get smoked all day. Nicotine as an antidepressant can't be the enemy, per that same logic of addiction isn't the enemy per caffeine— caffeine is antidepressant number 1.
 
and no, outrage is not the same as disgust. outrage happens over things you don't find disgusting
Can you give an example of something that causes moral outrage without moral digust?
but I don't know if you mean the smoke, or the oil which I don't know enough about but apparently it's medicinal
The oil is great and you get way more bang for your buck (15min high vs 3-4hr high) plus you don't smell like a pothead and make Valka sad.
 
Disagree on a few points but I really like "your happiness is ours" statement.

Taxes below item cost are a minimal imposition, it's always market + premium and doesn't drive growth of prices. Other than that, the more Democratic states have waaaay more liberal and free cannabis regulations than purple/red states. The West Coast isn't limiting growing operations to friends of the legislature.

Nicotine gets hate because it's so awful en masse to everyone else. Weed smoke doesn't hang like tobacco smoke, and doesn't get smoked all day. Nicotine as an antidepressant can't be the enemy, per that same logic of addiction isn't the enemy per caffeine— caffeine is antidepressant number 1.
Cigarettes alone might justify the point in restaurants or at work, but it rings hollow on tobacco. Like a bell with a pretty tone everyone likes.

Taxes below item cost are not minimal. Especially on something produced and consumed personally. Then they actually break the ability to have, which was the point in the first place. Not allowed. It's ours. You're ours.
 
Cigarettes alone might justify the point in restaurants or at work, but it rings hollow on tobacco. Like a bell with a pretty tone everyone likes.

Taxes below item cost are not minimal. Especially on something produced and consumed personally. Then they actually break the ability to have, which was the point in the first place. Not allowed. It's ours. You're ours.
People get stuck on categories. Cigarettes == Tobacco in the compilers of most heads. Semantic error, but no syntax error. If you know how to solve this problem, we can make magic happen. But new things bring minds to new places. Tobacco vapes are largely more accepted where cigarettes are not. In Texas bars tobacco vapes were 100% A-O-K until people started bringing the ones that cloud like dragons, then they started to all get regulated.

You can grow and smoke your own personal weed here in California, you will pay tax on the plant but on its flowers, which is free to you forever you provided you can maintain the plant.

Where Democrats have super majorities, weed is way less chock full of regulation.
 
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