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Why did my friend declare war on me?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by novalis112, Dec 23, 2008.

  1. novalis112

    novalis112 Chieftain

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    Greetings civ fans...

    So I was just playing civ4 (normal, emperor, small map, 8 civs) and at around 900AD my best friend (+8/-1, pleased, Mao) turned around and declared war on me. IT was so outrageous I had to find out why the AI would do that, but searching around here I can't seem to find any good guides as to what caues the AI to declare war. Any thoughts?

    Mao and I were best friends. We're the same religion, have some good resource trading going on, open borders, ...etc. He is the most powerful nation of the 5 on my continent, and I am the weakest. The little bit of info I've been able to find indicates that maybe he declared war simply because I was so weak? Is that AI really that poorly programmed?

    Everybody else in the game so far (I've met 4 other civs, including Mao, on my continent) likes me except for Tokugawa who hates me with a passion. Is it possible that Tokugawa was able to bribe Mao to declare war on me? Right before he declared war, the foreign adviser indicated that Mao disliked Tokugawa, and Tokugawa had very little gold for trading with me, so that seems highly unlikely.
     
  2. JRedGiant

    JRedGiant Chieftain

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    You need a reasonable military or you're at risk of a declaration of war from practically any civ, and possibly all of them at once. As far as avoiding an unwanted war, it's better to be feared than loved.
     
  3. KingLoraxII

    KingLoraxII Chieftain

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    amen, being feared is awesome - it can help you in so many ways. I was way behind in tech with a huge military and I could trade and DEMAND techs and get them.
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Not true.

    About 1/2 the leaders in the game will declare at pleased, the other half won't. The ONLY leader that can declare at friendly is cathy, and that's only if she's on good terms with someone else that can bribe her.

    On the flip side power rating is a threshold check. If the AI has, say, 20 knights and will declare vs anybody who isn't equal or greater in power, it won't matter EVEN ONE BIT whether you have 19 knights or zero. It would declare either way, with the same chance (I'm assuming no other units for simplicity in the example).

    Note that if you're at war, a new AI considers your enemy's strength as part of its own when deciding to declare on you. So even if you're considerably stronger than the new person declaring, you still fail the power check unless you're ridiculously huge and have the game shored up.

    At high levels, for much of the game it is JUST ABOUT IMPOSSIBLE to reach a threshold where the AI wouldn't declare because it builds more units and sooner. Getting the AIs to like you, or at least be markedly more likely to declare on someone else until you can do so, is a key skill. You can build up enough forces to defend yourself, but even then a war will set you back. Best to avoid it...
     
  5. Mesodius

    Mesodius Warmonger

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    I don't suppose you know where there is a list of which leaders will declare at Pleased or better and which will not? Would help me out a lot. Cheers. :)
     
  6. Joecoolyo

    Joecoolyo 99% Lightspeed

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    I can think of a couple off the top of my head:

    Montezuma
    Cathy
    Genghis Khan
    Kublai Khan
    Shaka

    The one thing to know about the A.I. is that they act a lot like their historical counterparts. Meaning Gandhi will usually like you (unless you really piss him off). Isabella will always hate you if your not her religion, Mansa Munsa is a tech whore (not sure if historical or not, just a fact about civ :) ) and so on and so forth. If you know your history, you should be able to pick and choose which relationship is going to benefit you the most, just by looking at the leader of the civ.
     
  7. Ekulyen

    Ekulyen Chieftain

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    Alexander (20%)
    Bismarck
    Catherine (20%)
    Elizabeth
    Genghis Khan
    Gilgamesh
    Huayna Capac
    Isabella
    Julius Caesar
    Kublai Khan
    Louis XIV (20%)
    Mansa Musa
    Mao Zedong (20%)
    Montezuma (20%)
    Napoleon
    Pacal II
    Peter
    Qin Shi Huang (20%)
    Ragnar
    Roosevelt
    Shaka
    Stalin
    Suryavarman II
    Tokugawa
    Victoria (20%)
    Willem van Oranje (20%)
    Zara Yaqob

    These leaders have a chance of declaring at pleased; after making the power check, they have a 10% chance to declare war on you (except those marked with 20%, who have a 20% chance). Interesting to see Mansa Musa pop up, yet Boudica doesn't... and this probably proves that Alexander and Monty are bigger psychos than Ragnar and Genghis.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6570

    Taken from this handy chart.
     
  8. Mesodius

    Mesodius Warmonger

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    Thanks much, I'll keep it handy. (may as well DL that PDF too).
     
  9. novalis112

    novalis112 Chieftain

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    So the bottom line is that this was probably the result of poor AI programming then, and not something more authentic like bribery from another AI or the like? That's very disappointing. But wait!

    After a little digging I found out that the programmers weren't so dull after all! It was the content creators who munged it up! It seems as though the programmers actually left a way to fix this "bug" in the "CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml" file. In that file, which defines the behavior for each of the civ leaders, there is a tag called "NoWarAttitudeProbs" which can be used to force leaders to behave a little more realistically. Does anybody know what the exact equation that this tag influences is?
     
  10. Supr49er

    Supr49er 2011 Thunderfall Cup

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    I'm sure you already know about keeping your military power near the top.
    Use the F9 Demographics to keep an eye on where you rank.

    Welcome to the Forums novalis112. :beer:
     
  11. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    What's so "poor" in some leaders being pragmatic opoportunistic backstabbing bastards? They are intended to be that way.
     
  12. bestbrian

    bestbrian Just this guy, ya know?

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    You make it sound like my ex-wife is a leader in this game. :D

    Yeah, it's not a bug; they're just doing what they're supposed to do. If it doesn't make sense or seem predictable, that's just a failure of the human, not the AI.
     
  13. jshetley

    jshetley Warlord

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    Not sure Cathy is the only one. Isabella declared war on me last night at friendly.
     
  14. bestbrian

    bestbrian Just this guy, ya know?

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    AP Resolution?
     
  15. novalis112

    novalis112 Chieftain

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    What is so poor about it is that it makes no sense. People whose cultures have been deeply bound together over hundreds or thousands of years don't suddenly turn around and attack each other for no reason other then "they can". A little chaos in an otherwise predictive system makes for good game play, but take it too far and it goes from being a delightfully unpredictable jazz melody to a bunch of noise. If I had left my border with a close ally completely unguarded, and a vehement enemy of mine had used an offer that my ally simply could not refuse to convince them to attack me, I would be cheering the amazing nuances of the AI programming. A random attack from someone who a few turns earlier was giving me free technologies is just mind bogglingly ridiculous to me. Anyway, I'm sure we all have our opinions about how realistic the AI behavior should be and I suppose we can agree to disagree on this aspect of it :)

    So, back to my question... For those of us who *do* want the AI to make sense, anyone know what the equation is that this XML tag influences?
     
  16. novalis112

    novalis112 Chieftain

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    Thanks for the welcome! I've been a civ fan since the very first version :) I'm familiar with the military power graph, but these days I'm trying to master the "pacifist" victories (specifically cultural at the moment).
     
  17. jshetley

    jshetley Warlord

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    I don't think so, I didn't see anything in the log about one. She couldn't do that to me anyway I don't think since we share religions.
     
  18. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    But the leader of the opposing country is an opportunistic bastard, who, while liking your culture, doesn't think that that's a deterrent from invading you.

    Maybe he likes your culture so much that he wants it all to himself? He feels so much sympathy to your weak people that he decides to give them the honor of being a part of his prosperous empire. :)

    And why him saying that he's pleased should mean he really is pleased?

    And yes, attacking for no other reason then "they can" is bad. But attacking for the reason of "claiming more land and cities from a weakling" is good.
     
  19. Karl Townsend

    Karl Townsend Prince

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    Maybe Another AI Bribed him?
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    She can't declare if her disposition is TRULY at friendly. I should have qualified what I said above though.

    "No AI other than Cathy can declare on you at friendly unless you enable stupid random events or the interface is flagrantly lying to you about his/her REAL disposition".

    You see, if you have a vassal of any kind, the AI will average its disposition towards you with that of your vassal and use that. But, fireaxis doesn't tell you that. Neither does the game interface. It will still say friendly even as she acts pleased or less and dows.

    There are also built-in modifiers + or - depending on leader as well as disposition related to peaceweight...those aren't shown but usually factor into the disposition regardless.

    Other than the interface lies, there's also the possibility of the AP forcing a war, a defensive pact, or he deciding to declare BEFORE becoming friendly, but declaring AFTER doing so (this is true for all leaders).

    Leave it to fireaxis to usefully provide all this information to new players so they don't have to blow games learning the hard way and...

    You will blow games, learning the hard way.
     

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