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Why did they nerf Amundsen Scott?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Archon_Wing, May 8, 2019.

  1. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Amundsen Scott. I can't edit the title.

    It requires Rapid Deployment which is like, forever.

    Was it really that strong to be at Cold War? Were people building it?
     
  2. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Occasionally. I've built it more since GS because of how they stretched out SV.

    I hate it when they nerf late game stuff. Things need to be powerful at that point to even be worth wasting time on.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  3. Phoenix1595

    Phoenix1595 Lord of the Two Lands

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    The one thing I noticed that really debuffs Amundsen is the map generation changes in GS. There are far fewer snow tiles in standard continent maps now, which make it even harder to build this sucker.
     
  4. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Warlord

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    Don't know how about here, but in our side, this wonder has always been very popular for common (not fastest) SV.
    Since peaceful SV tends to rush globalization, then chop spaceships in tundra cities (near snow tiles) after R&F, this one is very convenient, and 1620 prod is quite cheap for its era.
     
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  5. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Necroing this thread, since I just experienced the Amundsen-Scott goodness. I don't know what nerfing occurred back in May, but I've just now played my second large Emperor game, and Amundsen-Scott was the game winner for me. I admit, by the time Rapid Deployment started showing up on my radar, I was already ahead. However, the AI was at least still in the game. Scotland still had a shot at an RV. Eleanor had a shot at a CV.

    Not after Amundsen-Scott. That basically sealed it. It was pretty much game-over, late-game-cleanup after that. Leapfrogging an era ahead of 2nd-place AI, I could basically wage any war I wanted to grab more aluminum and uranium. I can't imagine how much that would have turned the game around, had I not been already ahead before that.
     
  6. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I think it's a good wonder regardless. Little competition and can chop/rush if needed. Big bonus overall; though mostly for science victories.
     
  7. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    Scott significantly boosts your science like Globalization does. +40% isn't a small number.

    Useful on Standard speed, especially when you don't have enough cities. If you have enough cities with universities to get 2,000 science per turn for 1-tech-per-turn, then no need to build that.

    Not useful on online speed, on online speed if you have 800 science per turn you're already tech 1 tech every turn, so there's no need to pump more science. Apart from science, it also provides 20% production but if you find a good place for Scott why don't you chop space projects in that city?

    The production bonus is also useful, exactly as useful as a Warlord's Throne.

    BTW besides production you also need a lot of gold to buy tiles if you really wish this wonder to be effective.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  8. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    Why are you comparing a late game wonder to a tier 1 govt. plaza building? You build them at different times in the game for different victory types. Sincerely, what do you see that they have in common?
     
  9. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Oh yeah. I think my point is, Amundsen-Scott is a wonder worth structuring your overall strategy around getting. I was a bit late to the party this game, not noticing until Rapid Deployment was just a couple techs forward. And then I noticed.

    That had me thinking: Okay, Judaism has Jesuits. How can I get a city converted to Judaism, so I can train missionaries and faith-buy my Campus buildings? You need research lab before you can start Amundsen-Scott.
    Can I send in a governor to buy my Campus outright? Magnus is the chop guy, but Reyna and Moksha are the district-purchasing guys; and Moksha has a faith bonus for finishing Amundsen.
    Re-route my domestic trade routes to go to Amundsen-Scott.
    Need to save up money.
    I don't need the 5 snow tiles until after the wonder is done. The important thing, first, is to get the wonder up before anyone else does. And it's still half as useful even without the other snow tiles. Also, the campus need only be ADJACENT to a snow tile--not on one.


    So I decide on Moksha; I had no way of getting Jesuits anyway. Faith goes to buying the campus; gold goes to buying the campus buildings. I settle on fresh water--I don't want to mess with aqueduct or housing issues. Important things about city placement:
    1. 5 snow tiles
    2. fresh water. Either that, or a) some extra money to buy a sewer, or b) some extra faith to buy an aqueduct. Builders aren't too good at adding housing improvements on snow tiles. Tundra, yes. Snow, no.
    3. close enough to a factory to get power to it. I had not considered this one until it was too late. Luckily, though, I had Mexico City. This is a big reason why Amundsen-Scott has to be planned way ahead.
    4. arboreal forest is nice, but the problem is I have to choose between Magnus and Moksha/Reyna. I chose Moksha and lumbermilled the forest.
    5. adjacency bonus for campus is nice, but...bleh. Doesn't matter here. Just get it up.
    6. You can push it on the loyalty--it's getting a governor. Just avoid the -20's. The domestic trade routes roll in the food.

    I domestic-traded and policy-carded the tar out of it. I didn't miss the opportunity cost for doing it--the payoff from Amundsen-Scott far exceeded whatever opportunity cost. Gustav Eiffel comes up on my Great People list as an engineer (450 hammers toward wonder construction), and I had the Mausoleum for precisely this reason. Industrial Zone projects!! My other cities rush in to get those GP points up.

    Amundsen-Scott comes up about 7 turns sooner than I thought. So what happens? My science far outpaces what I expected, so I end up researching Future Tech much more than I thought. I went for Science Victory, but that was only for the Steam achievements. It actually helped more with a Domination victory than anything else, since I could just upgrade my army an era ahead and steamroll. I ended up going to war anyway, to get more aluminum and uranium (SV can eat up all the aluminum and uranium it can get). I used some lame, pretextual casus belli, of course. Anyway the point is, my SV was no longer science-limited at all: I was production-limited. And Amundsen-Scott was even giving me +20% toward that.

    Hindsight 20/20, I should have declared war BEFORE Amundsen-Scott, because I could have pillaged a bunch of faith and gold to help with the project. It's just the war would have been significantly harder then, since I wasn't teched up yet. But it's another way to get your other cities to pitch in: by building units. The units pillage. With the loot, you rush Amundsen-Scott. Then with the +20% production bonus, your cities get their production back.

    The Moksha bonus faith from building Amundsen-Scott and the campus buildings didn't really matter.

    Now, I'm left with all these domestic trade routes still going to my snow city, after Amundsen-Scott is done. Which I don't regret, but...now that I have all these snow tiles and excess production, I can throw up districts that don't really care about adjacency bonuses (I chose Aerodrome, but should have chosen Encampment and built an airfield). Wind Farms on the hills tiles. Turn 265 SV, in spite of all my mistakes.

    I think the point is that if you've felt the goodness of Warlord's Throne, and you go to all the trouble of going to war to get it, then...Amundsen-Scott is giving the same thing, and it's permanent. Also if you time it right, you can go capture a city while your snow city is up, and get the 20% bonus toward building the wonder. Probably want to get that population and hammer count up first, before taking the city.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2019
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Both are +20% for late game projects? I build warlords for an SV. But you know these things
     
  11. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    Sure, the Warlord's Throne is also good for a SV but it comes so early that it's a different element of the game for me. It requires a large investment early in the game but its effect is good for the rest of the game. If your taking cities regularly it really helps you to snowball starting in the Classical Era. Amundsen-Scott (which to be honest I haven't used much) comes so late that it's doesn't really help you win, it helps you win faster. It's also only relevant to SVs. I'm not dismissing A-S but it's not as versatile and doesn't have the impact of the Warlord's Throne. Then again if I were serious about getting more efficient at SVs I'd probably want to take a closer look at it. It just seemed like a strange comparison to me.
     
  12. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

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    Does it stack with the Builder charge toward space projects? A 7-charge Builder is worth 14%.

    You can have: +20% from Warlord Throne, +20% from Hong Kong, +30% from Pingala, +30% from Synthetic Technocracy, +40% from International Space Station competition, +15% with Integrated Space Cell policy, +10% with Colonial taxes policy, +20% with Automated Workforce dark policy, +20% with Amundsen-Scott Research Station, +15% with Casa de Contratacion, +20% with Ruhr Valley, +10% for ecstatic, and up to +220% with Great People, so up to +470% in total.

    So, a 7-charge Builder now can complete 80% of a space project?

    If I want to aim a 2-turn space-program, I need the Builder do 50% at once, so +260% Production. Does that mean that, as long as I have both +100% production great people, I just need to have Pingala (+30%) and Synthetic Technocracy (+30%) and I am good?
     
  13. Slip de Garcon

    Slip de Garcon Warlord

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    I love it, but it literally takes the whole game ready to get some useless tundra city ready to build it.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    If you want a 2 turn space program you have to wait a long time to get those engineers or just chop the entire thing in a single turn 100 turns earlier. With the Aztecs its easier as they can build spaceports with builders so have a separate spaceport for each project
    of course
     
  15. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    I just played another Emperor game with a different civ, and I better planned for Amundsen-Scott this time. Pre-built a factory ahead of time within range of Hoth, and because I pre-planned I was able to settle on a better tile and build an aqueduct beforehand. Levelled up Reyna so I could purchase the Campus district with gold, and got Jesuits early on. My other cities worked Industrial Zone projects and got Gustav Eiffel GE, to later use on Amundsen-Scott.

    Only problem is, things STILL did not go as planned! Yes, I planned for Amundsen-Scott much better this time. But I also planned my ENTIRE GAME much better--and ended up not needing Amundsen-Scott at all. Sure, it's powerful, but I already had the game won by Renaissance. So it's time for me to move up to Immortal.

    LOL and I ended up not even using Gustav Eiffel on Amundsen-Scott. I used him on St. Basil's. There was a race on to grab St. Basil's first, and I had Gustav Eiffel just sitting there waiting for Rapid Deployment to get researched. My snow city naturally had tons of tundra tiles as well. So I use Eiffel to win the race for St. Basil's, and I use the tundra tile bonuses to help hard-build Amundsen-Scott much more quickly--which there was NOT a race for by that point, anyway.

    What's more, I made building the Mausoleum a priority much earlier in the game, to give Eiffel another charge. Turns out, the Mausoleum gives a kick-butt bonus to science, which is what helped wrap up the game by Renaissance (and not even need Eiffel at all to win).

    Another unplanned thing was, I picked an Apostle with Heathen Conversion (my other promotion choice was "100 gold when you convert a city for the first time", which is worse). I just sent him down to my snow base--barbs tend to lurk in the snow. I didn't have to draw away any military to silence the barb threat, except for one skirmisher (to keep the apostle safe). Between that and the Aerodrome (snow tiles make prime locations for Aerodromes), my snow city ended up adding significantly to my late-game military--not drawing from it.


    Guess I'll see what happens in Immortal. The wonder races and the race to Eiffel are probably very different.
     
  16. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    I don't remember the last time I see a +100% prod GP. Maybe after R & F since GP mechanism changed I've never seen him.

    However Goddard can be used twice if you have Halicarnassus.
     

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