Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Religion ones would be on the Religion page. National and Player ones can go on the City screen after all the Tech bar is. Game wide ones not sure.
Why did you guys gave the Power (Gorge) the Health and Happiness bonus?
- Thread starter Logoncal
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I don't really remember, but there is a good chance I put the player properties at least there.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You know this is pretty close to what the Ideas Project would enable and what the intent of that project includes.I forgot about these. I have plans for them with religions since they cross nations.
One question to think about - If it is a game level property does the AI take it into consideration when choosing what to do?
For example if your Shamanism is at 29 and Shamanism at 30 gives a boost to all Shaman Cathedral buildings will the AI provide that extra point if it can and has Shamanism in its cities? Will it when Shamanism is at 10?
Based on the "Total War" mod a religion gets access to temples when the religion is founded (=1); monasteries and Shrine at 6; cathedrals at 13; then more benefits to those buildings at 20 and 30.
The property value goes up by spending one or more "religious resources" on the Religion. The resource itself is valid for some but not all religions and is more beneficial to some than others.
This George Dam is world wonder, meaning that only one AI or player can use this cheat.
Cheat being compounding effect of Power (George), that is game breaking.
Power (George) - effect that is spawned by George Dam world wonder saves ONLY ONE AI from properties or makes player more resistant to properties.
What about removing global heatlth/happiness from Power (George) effect?
Either instead of some amount of competitive AI's you have one less to care about, or player doesn't have to care about properties that much.
As for Safety(Orbital) special building having global health bonus AI can't use it at all - its spawner is Cislunar National Wonder placed in Nanotech era.
Cheat being compounding effect of Power (George), that is game breaking.
Power (George) - effect that is spawned by George Dam world wonder saves ONLY ONE AI from properties or makes player more resistant to properties.
What about removing global heatlth/happiness from Power (George) effect?
Either instead of some amount of competitive AI's you have one less to care about, or player doesn't have to care about properties that much.
As for Safety(Orbital) special building having global health bonus AI can't use it at all - its spawner is Cislunar National Wonder placed in Nanotech era.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Three Gorges Dam Has always given Free power even in Vanilla BtS. And iirc Global Happiness as well. Not hard to check Civ IV assets to verify.
And quite frankly why is this such a problem for you? The Global Happiness and Health it gives can be over ridden by poor Disease and pollution handling, player or AI. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. How about giving it a rest?
Raxxo isn't talking about the free power,and it did not give health (Edit: nor happiness) whatsoever in vanilla BtS.
It is as I pointed out real early in this thread that in rev. 9627 you added the +X
in all cities multiplied by the number of cities on the continent where three gorges dam is built.so if there are 5 cities on the same continent as three gorges dam then all cities will get +5X
I used "X" because you reduced the amount in a recent SVN revision.
I think X was 5 between rev. 9627 to 9806.
From 9806 to now it is 3.
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Not vanilla power, but power (george) effect.
This effect building, that gets placed in all cities of same continent has global health and happines tag.
"Mole hill" size depends on city amount on continent where you built that Georges Dam wonder.
It is mole hill with <5 cities and mountain with >100 cities on same continent.
Did you built that world wonder? Hydroelectricity, that unlocks it is in industrial era.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Where did I say it did? What is with the nitpick anyway?
I added Health to it to counter ie, reduce the onslaught of
in the later Eras that was exposed back then (svn) by SO's save game. I've already explained all this.It is as I pointed out real early in this thread that in rev. 9627 you added the +X
What is the purpose of this call out again?
Just to hammer out again that you don't like the # Gorges Dam World Wonder to have a Global Health? So what? It is Not game breaking, and only 1 player will Ever benefit no matter how you or Raxo distort the issue with wild examples. It's a freakin' WW for cryin' out loud in a game that allows WWs to give bonuses in all sizes and ranges.This whole contention is just plain old nit pick. No more no less. And this goes for you too Raxo. Just stop.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
@JosEPh_II : I want you to know right up front, I explained that I understand your reason to leave it alone for now. However, I just want to make sure you fully understand that the global health and happiness is being applied to the effect building and not just the wonder itself. And this means that for every city that you have you get every city getting that much.
Thus if you have one city, with a global +1 happy in each city, you get +1 happy in that city. (1*1)
If you have 2 cities with a global +1 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +4 happy.(2*2)
If you have 3 cities with a global +1 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +9 happy.(3*3)
If you have 4 cities with a global +1 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +16 happy.(4*4)
And so on. Thus if you have 10 cities with a global +1 happy in each city, each city is getting +100 happy.(10*10)
What about your standard 30-50 cities for this era? 50*50 = +2500 Happy per city. And that's just at +1 global on all effect buildings being spread about. The fact that it is contained to one continent does contain it some minimal amount. I've seen some pretty big continents (like waterless maps).
Now, if you had a global +1 happy on the dam itself, and not on the effect buildings that the dam puts in every city you have, then you would have the normal linear +1 happy in all cities. Are you SURE this isn't more what you are intending? IF so, you could either just use the global tags on the Dam and get rid of the 'effect' buildings entirely. OR you could convert the +/- health/happy tags from globals to normal use tags (something like iHealthChange or iHappinessChange) on the effect buildings.
If you really mean for the nation to get this filled up with health and happiness, then great. You can see how this is also creating enormous negative values from the application of these tags on later game crimes. When all cities start devolving into late game crime levels and all those lategame crimes have global adjustments then each city that hits this pain is causing so much more for every other city, so the most effective nations are the ones to collapse the fastest once the unhappiness starts causing so many citizens to stop working that crime stops being something the city can react to or control in the least and this is happening for all cities at once and each one that suffers this pain adds to the suffering of all others. I know you're trying to counter this sort of effect with this kind of positive tag usage but I don't think that it will be possible to control if we can't get the AI to control the crime to start with properly. It won't take much with the punishing values those crimes have to completely cause an out of control death spiral for a large nation. Having this wonder is maybe one deuce ex machina solution to guard against this kind of collapse scenario but it then also makes the player that has this get a benefit that is far too powerful for any sense of balance.
Now, again, I've only explained this so that we can all be absolutely sure that you are doing what you intend to do. What is important to me is that the design is intended, and that you mean for it to behave as it does.
Thus if you have one city, with a global +1 happy in each city, you get +1 happy in that city. (1*1)
If you have 2 cities with a global +1 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +4 happy.(2*2)
If you have 3 cities with a global +1 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +9 happy.(3*3)
If you have 4 cities with a global +1 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +16 happy.(4*4)
And so on. Thus if you have 10 cities with a global +1 happy in each city, each city is getting +100 happy.(10*10)
What about your standard 30-50 cities for this era? 50*50 = +2500 Happy per city. And that's just at +1 global on all effect buildings being spread about. The fact that it is contained to one continent does contain it some minimal amount. I've seen some pretty big continents (like waterless maps).
Now, if you had a global +1 happy on the dam itself, and not on the effect buildings that the dam puts in every city you have, then you would have the normal linear +1 happy in all cities. Are you SURE this isn't more what you are intending? IF so, you could either just use the global tags on the Dam and get rid of the 'effect' buildings entirely. OR you could convert the +/- health/happy tags from globals to normal use tags (something like iHealthChange or iHappinessChange) on the effect buildings.
If you really mean for the nation to get this filled up with health and happiness, then great. You can see how this is also creating enormous negative values from the application of these tags on later game crimes. When all cities start devolving into late game crime levels and all those lategame crimes have global adjustments then each city that hits this pain is causing so much more for every other city, so the most effective nations are the ones to collapse the fastest once the unhappiness starts causing so many citizens to stop working that crime stops being something the city can react to or control in the least and this is happening for all cities at once and each one that suffers this pain adds to the suffering of all others. I know you're trying to counter this sort of effect with this kind of positive tag usage but I don't think that it will be possible to control if we can't get the AI to control the crime to start with properly. It won't take much with the punishing values those crimes have to completely cause an out of control death spiral for a large nation. Having this wonder is maybe one deuce ex machina solution to guard against this kind of collapse scenario but it then also makes the player that has this get a benefit that is far too powerful for any sense of balance.
Now, again, I've only explained this so that we can all be absolutely sure that you are doing what you intend to do. What is important to me is that the design is intended, and that you mean for it to behave as it does.
Well it scales linearly with amount of cities not quadratically.
That is 1 building with x global happiness and y global health gives x happiness and y health to each city.
If you had 10 buildings like this, then total effect would be 10x happiness and 10y health added to each city.
Joseph my examples are real, 5 cities continent can be small island on normal map.
And 100 players cities is easy to get if you pack cities densely on mostly land map.
Wild examples are here to test edge cases.
I just find it very weird design choice for power (george) effect to make health/happiness impact depending on city amount on continent.
Basically its bug/exploit for me.
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Right, you said it gave global happiness in vanilla, sorry.
However, the same goes for happiness, vanilla 3GD did not increase happiness whatsoever.
It is as I pointed out real early in this thread that in rev. 9627 you added the +X
in all cities multiplied by the number of cities on the continent where three gorges dam is built.so if there are 5 cities on the same continent as three gorges dam then all cities will get +5X
I used "X" because you reduced the amount in a recent SVN revision.
I think X was 10 between rev. 9627 to 9806.
From 9806 to now it is 5.
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ok... I goofed. You're right. Still a lot.Well, the same goes for happiness, vanilla 3GD did not increase happiness whatsoever.
It is as I pointed out real early in this thread that in rev. 9627 you added the +X
so if there are 5 cities on the same continent as three gorges dam then all cities will get +5X
I used "X" because you reduced the amount in a recent SVN revision.
I think X was 10 between rev. 9627 to 9806.
From 9806 to now it is 5.
Correction: (I use 5 happiness for the global as that is what the 3GD currently give through it's free building in all cities extension.)
Thus if you have one city, with a global +5 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +5 happy. (1*5)
If you have 2 cities with a global +5 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +10 happy.(2*5)
If you have 3 cities with a global +5 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +15 happy.(3*5)
If you have 4 cities with a global +5 happy in each city, each city is getting a total of +20 happy.(4*5)
And so on. Thus if you have 10 cities with a global +5 happy in each city, each city is getting +50 happy.(10*5)
What about your standard 30-50 cities for this era? 50*5 = +250 Happy per city. And that's just at +5 global on all effect buildings being spread about.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
IF all your cities are on 1 continent this is true. But IF they are Not all on 1 continent then this is false.
I just ran a test. I added The Three Gorges Dan WW to my capital city of Washington. I had all the prereqs needed. My Home continent has 13 of my 33 cities. The largest Empire in game has 40 cities. (This world is almost out of places to put more cities.) By building the Dam I got 39
/city no matter Home continent are not. Because of the Condition of Home Continent cities built into this WW.And for
I got 5 x 13 = 65 per city.I have screen shots If I need to put them up.
Point is there are Other moving parts to this whole Cry Wolf scenario.
In fact I have 2 cities in starvation, they were going into full citizen shut down. Crime, Disease were both in the 500+ and 600+ ranges respectively. Also my Education values had fallen into a double digit negative value per turn and these 2 cities now have -1000 to -2000 education total value ranges. The Damn Dam does not save their bacon by getting their
vs to a + total Nor does getting their vs 
to a + value. Because these cities were built on another continent they are 2nd tier cities and as such takes Tons of Gold to get their cities buildings up to snuff fighting Crime and Disease AND LOW eDUCATION LEVELS.I can't build the lower level Buildings that give the lower level LE or Healers because those lines have been made obsolete. So I either have to import Multiple current level LE or Healers to these cities Or just spend gargantuan amounts of Gold to Hurry Buildings that will! I went thru 15000 gold on 4 buildings for these 2 cities. Just to get Crime and Education turn values to be positive to start to whittle down the Crime and education deficits. I ran out of Money so I could not add any Heath giving Buildings with these 4 I did Hurry.Again the Damned Dam scenario is overblown garbage and just plain needs to stop. Because Crime, Disease, and Education as well as Pollution Properties give X amount per citizen Regardless of how
or or or the population in the city is!You guys focus on one little math equation and fixate on it. And you do not consider all the other ingredients the mod is adding and subtracting to the mod beyond that little focal point that has you transfixed. This is what gets me over this type of crap.
And it constantly tells me you have No trust in what I'm trying to do.
This Test has also shown me some more areas of concern that need much more attention than 2 Global modifiers on a WW that 1 player in the whole Damned game can have!
If it can be built At ALL!And I said before I'm Done with this Futile and stupid Thread.
Now who's nitpicking, I was merely correcting a math mistake TB made and thought it was well established that we were talking about amount of cities on one continent by now.
No screen shots is necessary because it harmonize with what I've been saying all along.II just ran a test. I added The Three Gorges Dan WW to my capital city of Washington. I had all the prereqs needed. My Home continent has 13 of my 33 cities. The largest Empire in game has 40 cities. (This world is almost out of places to put more cities.) By building the Dam I got 39
And for
I have screen shots If I need to put them up.
Edit:
If someone asks you how much happiness/health the 3GD gives, you must answer:
"+3 to 150 or more health, and +5 to 250 or more happiness, depending on how many cities are on the continent it is built on".
So you are really okay with this and feel that the wonder is well balanced, that this is good game design?
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Sounds like we need to start looking at developing out later game educators.
So my question here is how did it get this bad so fast? Are the crime levels too severe with global unhappiness and unhealth values as they are? If that Dam, which is providing WAY more health and happiness then I would think was a valid operational range for any building to give (like +10 happiness to all cities would seem like a wondrous amount alone I would think) cannot counter a negative impact from something then we really need to find what that something is and start diminishing that.In fact I have 2 cities in starvation, they were going into full citizen shut down. Crime, Disease were both in the 500+ and 600+ ranges respectively. Also my Education values had fallen into a double digit negative value per turn and these 2 cities now have -1000 to -2000 education total value ranges. The Damn Dam does not save their bacon by getting their
(Again, I'm not asking you to do anything about the Dam... this discussion is what I'm looking for, a way to narrow in on what the problem is.)
I do get an insight here that education levels are too difficult to keep up in later game and that makes sense. Again, we really really need to start getting the educators in play so that's an immediate project need after release. Apparently it is definitely working to make education challenging that it demands an extra point per pop with every era. I wonder if I can temporarily cut off this growth after the age we introduce last entertainer line unit in. I'll have to look at that.
Crime and disease don't look too bad at 500-600 so are we just enabling far too punishing crime and disease building effects at too shallow crime/disease levels?
The point has always been here that analyzing one bubble of obvious imbalance leads to understanding why it seemed so necessary to counter what are obviously much larger problems. With so few players ever reaching later eras until recently, there was always an expectation that the balance of property management would be flawed at some point. Up through Medieval at least it seems pretty balanced. I have figured that without extending an education line of units, there would probably be eventual difficulties with education. But until now, I haven't heard of anyone being in educational negatives at any era.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
Joe. The thing is, that you want this wonder as a quick patch for AI rippled by diseases and crime, and since it is a wonder, it can be only build once. Plus there is no reason to have these modifiers on it. Also, 40 is not "simple +3 on a building"...Even more if you don't have 13 cities on your continent. Why are you so stubborn about this?
is not "simple +3 on a building"...Even more if you don't have 13 cities on your continent. Why are you so stubborn about this?Maybe reducing global unhealth/unhappiness in crime/pollution properties would be good idea?
Heavy Fog has +1 global unhappines.
If it was in one city will add 1 unhappines in all cities.
If it was in two cities, will add 2 unhappiness in all cities.
Here are such buildings:
Crime (Drug Cartels): 0 / -2
Crime (Gang Warfare): 0 / -1
Crime (Human Trafficking): 0 / -1
Crime (Illegal Brainwashing): 0 / -2
Crime (Organized Crime): 0 / -1
Crime (Rioting): 0 / -1
Crime (Sectarian Violence): 0 / -2
Crime (Timeline Tampering): 0 / -5
Pollution (Blackened Skies): -3 / 0
Pollution (Heavy Smog): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major Global Warming): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major Groundwater Pollution): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major River Pollution): -1 / 0
Pollution (Toxic Atmosphere): -2 / 0
Pollution (Toxic Hydrosphere): -2 / 0
This still should do good job with ruining all cities without being completely destroying them:
Crime (Drug Cartels): 0 / -1
Crime (Gang Warfare): 0 / -1
Crime (Human Trafficking): 0 / -1
Crime (Illegal Brainwashing): 0 / -1
Crime (Organized Crime): 0 / -1
Crime (Rioting): 0 / -1
Crime (Sectarian Violence): 0 / -1
Crime (Timeline Tampering): 0 / -1
Pollution (Blackened Skies): -1 / 0
Pollution (Heavy Smog): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major Global Warming): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major Groundwater Pollution): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major River Pollution): -1 / 0
Pollution (Toxic Atmosphere): -1 / 0
Pollution (Toxic Hydrosphere): -1 / 0
Or remove few ones and leave globals only on highest level crime/pollution buildings.
Edit: does anyone has property tables?
+500 of some property in Classical era isn't that bat as +500 of some property in Modern era.
We have 76 crimes, that get unlocked trough 7 eras or so.
Pollution doesn't have tech unlocks.
Heavy Fog has +1 global unhappines.
If it was in one city will add 1 unhappines in all cities.
If it was in two cities, will add 2 unhappiness in all cities.
Here are such buildings:
Crime (Drug Cartels): 0 / -2
Crime (Gang Warfare): 0 / -1
Crime (Human Trafficking): 0 / -1
Crime (Illegal Brainwashing): 0 / -2
Crime (Organized Crime): 0 / -1
Crime (Rioting): 0 / -1
Crime (Sectarian Violence): 0 / -2
Crime (Timeline Tampering): 0 / -5
Pollution (Blackened Skies): -3 / 0
Pollution (Heavy Smog): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major Global Warming): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major Groundwater Pollution): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major River Pollution): -1 / 0
Pollution (Toxic Atmosphere): -2 / 0
Pollution (Toxic Hydrosphere): -2 / 0
This still should do good job with ruining all cities without being completely destroying them:
Crime (Drug Cartels): 0 / -1
Crime (Gang Warfare): 0 / -1
Crime (Human Trafficking): 0 / -1
Crime (Illegal Brainwashing): 0 / -1
Crime (Organized Crime): 0 / -1
Crime (Rioting): 0 / -1
Crime (Sectarian Violence): 0 / -1
Crime (Timeline Tampering): 0 / -1
Pollution (Blackened Skies): -1 / 0
Pollution (Heavy Smog): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major Global Warming): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major Groundwater Pollution): -1 / 0
Pollution (Major River Pollution): -1 / 0
Pollution (Toxic Atmosphere): -1 / 0
Pollution (Toxic Hydrosphere): -1 / 0
Or remove few ones and leave globals only on highest level crime/pollution buildings.
Edit: does anyone has property tables?
+500 of some property in Classical era isn't that bat as +500 of some property in Modern era.
We have 76 crimes, that get unlocked trough 7 eras or so.
Pollution doesn't have tech unlocks.
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Joe. The thing is, that you want this wonder as a quick patch for AI rippled by diseases and crime, and since it is a wonder, it can be only build once. Plus there is no reason to have these modifiers on it. Also, 40
(Emphasis mine) LOL. As if this is the first time he's pulled a stunt like this.
Glad you changed the power (Gorge) effect, but I'm curious about why you reduced the global-health bonus from the universal health care national wonder?9840
- Removal of said Globals from The Three Gorges Dam to appease to
Didn't you say the AI had problems with unhealthiness in mature games?
ahengle
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 10, 2016
- Messages
- 36
Is it weird for me to pop in on these forums like once a year? 
Anyway, imho, it would be better idea to add the temporary fix like this to a token building that has its purpose in the name, like "hotfix for issue X" rather than hide it on a random building.
Anyway, imho, it would be better idea to add the temporary fix like this to a token building that has its purpose in the name, like "hotfix for issue X" rather than hide it on a random building.
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