Why do old people hate new music?

Globally marketed stuff is always less quirky since quirks don't translate well. Like with movies, there's a reason they're action blockbusters and not romcoms. Romcoms don't translate. There's great music, and probably more than ever. You just have to go find it. Like with everything else, the internet buries it under seas of homogenized tripe. The algorithms are such glorious masters.
 
Yes.

Just about every new tune uses 4 beats to the bar time signatures, they use the same groups of 4 bars phrasing, they have the same structures and themes.

New music has become more and more uniform in its style, even across different genres.

This just means that you're listening to the mainstream, and not experiencing the full range ;).

(Even there I'd actually disagree; it's not so that ....er... who's hipp.... Billy Eilish and Cardi B sound the same)
 
Yes.

Just about every new tune uses 4 beats to the bar time signatures, they use the same groups of 4 bars phrasing, they have the same structures and themes.

New music has become more and more uniform in its style, even across different genres.

I study musicology, and this is not what people believe in the field. Not that musical structure hasn't changed, they're well aware of this. But it's more that musical "quality" is much more complicated than that. I'll paste my post from earlier in this thread. I was quite tired when writing it, so if something is confusing, feel free to ask.

This was what I was waiting for in this thread. ;)

Most claims of music being in decline are pretty much hacky in character. It's something we intricately try to figure out (why it's experienced as such, and whether there's anything substantive to it) in musicology.

I know the usual suspects as popularized on YouTube; the loudness war, claims of harmonic simplification, structural simplification, faltering skill in regards to musicianship. To those in particular, I'd point out that good loudness (that is, well sounding compression) is hard to do; for the simplifications the claimants of this usually swear by blues and/or classical that are incredibly formulaic, which usually undermines that position (classical harmony and structure is much more limited than most people realize); and there is real skill demanded in using a PC to compose this stuff.

Some of the claims of music in decline use the skin of empirical research to provide their results, but I'd like to stress the principle that particularly in the case of art, what measurements you use for it really are in the eye of the beholder. There was a viral study that was popularly read as decline of complexity in sound, for example. How one sided this study's points were... Depends on the reader. I read it and it was much less grumpy old man than it was represented as in the media. It's strue that certain elements have been less prioritized, but it doesn't mean other things have been emphasized for the benefit of some vision (which is, yes, usually capitalist in intentionality more than anything else. There's a correlation between capitalism and sound in a material way, but it's usually more complicated than "decline"). It's basically the equivalent of the OP point: There's stuff in newer music that older ears are usually not able to detect.

This channel is also pretty good usually, but did a ridiculous claim about classical music vs. pop, where they noted that classical tended to do slower buildup in harmony, and pop structures, particularly four chord arrangements, basically gave the climax once every four chords. Thing is that this only holds true if you use function harmonics as a strict base of your perception of music (pop has buildup, it's just not expressed in intervals, usually), and necessiate this classical particular form of buildup as integral to musical quality, because otherwise you can't claim decline or lack of quality. (That classical actually has plenty of pieces without Wagnerian/Beethoven-esque buildup also demonstrates why this whole idea is ridiculous, but let's leave that be for now.) If you don't spend the whole piece building towards a proper harmonic cadence in Western classical, your piece has failed. So if you use that premise for every kind of music, a lot of stuff is just going to be failed art. No matter what other stuff is done there.

It's like, think about if you go into a forest with the intention of biking on a bicycle route. Following this, you believe it's a bad forest if there isn't a bicycle route. You don't find a bicycle route, it's a bad forest. Maybe the forest has other uses than biking, and using a biking measurement for it kind of misses the other ways you can engage with the forest.

Translating that, of course any kind of music is going to be "in decline" if you judge it by unrelated harmonic rules and modes of perception. If you don't have the mode of listening for certain signs. I know the idea of thinking the forest is bad for not having a bicycle route, even if you're a biking enthusiast, is absurd. But that's the usual problem when people claim stuff is in decline. "It doesn't have this old harmonic rule anymore! It sucks!"

I also know that a lot of people swear by having more complicated harmonies that "don't follow rules" or whatever. But... Let's just call it avantgardism, and point out that this is also a poor universal metric, to claim that things must always push forward. It's a metric as much as a stringent harmonic rule to just believe that rules must be broken, and simply doesn't apply to everything. Old ears can have the issue too, of embracing avantgardism at the cost of everything else.

I actually have this problem in regards to a lot of genres. My ears simply aren't in tune with presuppositions of signs that exist in certain genres of music. Which is why I keep to my own ballpark when studying music.

To put it quite simply, you aren't gonna get far understanding an art piece when using 100 year old metrics (where stuff like harmonic and structural variation was the recipe for a succesful piece; it doesn't hold up anymore). It also vastly underestimates how formulaic older music actually is. Most people are acquainted with high school musicology at best, and even then it's basically formulated after classical metrics, especially in the US where they use Schenker as the base for everything.

A big problem today is that most innovation/change happens in tone color and texture, something classical was ridiculously samey in regards to, so in music analysis we lack a lot of tools to properly assess why some textures appeal to people. How do you say anything interesting about this in regards to notation? Well, you really don't, there's just not enough for traditional music analysis to showcase as affect as compared to like Mozart and Beethoven (who the methods were largely made for to begin with). It's not random chance that when prog rock wanted to "elevate" rock they brought a lot of techniques in from classical composition, simply because that was the contemporary popular idea of artistic elevation; because it's something people commonly conceptualize and understand as to how there's complexity. But how do you meaningfully represent the plethora of possibilities for one MIDI interval entry in notation? You can't - our concept of complexity is tied to intervals, to a technology of notation whose most complicated instrument was the violin.

And before you probably go there, avantgarde actually has its own formula, but it's reasonably complicated how it works. This extends into progressive rock, for example, which I would wager could fall under wherever point in time you're doing the cutoff.

I analyzed this as part of a paper once. Nice piece, but it's so formulaic. There were, as far as I remember, two chords that didn't strictly adhere to the rules of the time. And note here - these are rules as to composition that both prescribe how things are to be made, but also are part of the presuppositions that allows the listener to identify affect and feel value from the piece. It's good if anything partly because it's so formulaic.
 
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One thing which I almost always find as very artificial and also very unpleasant, is the ridiculously formulaic structure of pop music. Particularly the "bridge" part, which in most songs seems to me to just be there as a forced injection, and often ruins the rest of the song.

Of course you can find the equivalent of bridge sections in classical music too, at times also equally conspicuous, with a similar grating effect (in my view a good example would be Prokofiev's Dance of the Knights, where likely no one cares about the bridge - and Prokofiev was a serious composer). (bridge starts at around 1.53; repeats with minor alteration later on, so possibly it's not a real bridge but has other significance in musical theory)


Iirc the above is part of a ballet, so maybe the bridge there has actual use in practice.
 
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One thing which I almost always find as very artificial and also very unpleasant, is the ridiculously formulaic structure of pop music. Particularly the "bridge" part, which in most songs seems to me to just be there as a forced injection, and often ruins the rest of the song.

Of course you can find the equivalent of bridge sections in classical music too, at times also equally conspicuous, with a similar grating effect (in my view a good example would be Prokofiev's Dance of the Knights, where likely no one cares about the bridge - and Prokofiev was a serious composer).


Iirc the above is part of a ballet, so maybe the bridge there has actual use in practice.
Interestingly, I often feel the bridges are where the pop composers can finally breathe and try out some things they usually can't as per the standard harmony. But this also means it's often why it feels out of nowhere. It's very interesting to me.
 
Interestingly, I often feel the bridges are where the pop composers can finally breathe and try out some things they usually can't as per the standard harmony. But this also means it's often why it feels out of nowhere. It's very interesting to me.

In some cases it works well, but imo in most it is very artificial and sort of a foreign body (in pop music).
 
In some cases it works well, but imo in most it is very artificial and sort of a foreign body (in pop music).

Often I feel it ruins the mood. My ears prefer more sentimental songs, and the bridge is usually a bridge of hope, to put it inaccurately, like a release of major chords and I'm like ugh I'm trying to be sad here.


This is one of those pop pieces that do the bridge very well in my eyes. Best part of the song.

Edit happens around... 2:33, and builds into some pretty solid upwelling sad stuff, "Funny you're the broken one" etc. And then back to the decent, but not as powerful chorus, for my ears.

Interestingly the tension releases into a 4 chord pop structure in the end, after playing around with the piano chords.
 
Classical is only classical, tho. It's pretty samey in its way. But lots of the stuff I find snore worthy shares characteristics too. WAP isn't gross, it's just boring AF. As one lonely example.
 
Sure. That's normal! But it wouldn't form a cogent category if it didn't have similarities. There's new classical, it's not period bound.
 
If taken as a category, sure - but that has nothing to do with classical, or even music; anything which can be placed in a set, is part of that set, and ultimately if one defined classical music as "that which sounds like classical music", it is a set with some periphery with which it forms a tied larger set.

But if we are going by musical composition, obviously classical music is massively more varied than pop music. For starters, most pop musicians are both self-taught and (more crucially) not knowledgeable in music theory - this has the effect that any different harmony or other musical element will (if there at all) be chance and talent driven, and thus hugely rarer and more random than in classical.

Pop music is one of those fields where (for a number of reasons*) people usually are happy to work with rediscovering stuff and not even be able to name them let alone standardize and study why they arise as phenomena, which is like pre-greek mathematicians who didn't even have the notion of a theorem :smug: :)

*Before university, I sort of was one such "musician"; I played electric guitar (as lead) and only cared about playing 1 million notes/second, instead paying no attention to theory past the most basic scales. So I can see the allure - it's just not as musical. It was one of the reasons why I gave up immediately when university started; I wouldn't have had, if I was actually trained as a musician.
 
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Yeah, but if classical is varied in that way, so is "pop."

So many types not much like each other.
 
Yeah, but if classical is varied in that way, so is "pop."

So many types not much like each other.


Zappa was (clearly) a musician with knowledge about music theory, and still he is usually regarded as pop, due to his general style and way of doing things (let alone the kinds of instruments he uses).
But Zappa certainly wasn't the norm. The norm is young people who come up with some catchy tune.

In classical you also find composers whose most famous works (or among their most famous) are pieces that are quite "generic" for classical music. Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata's most popular movement is that, as well as "For Elise".
Likewise, in pop music you see bands like Radiohead, who had for a while a very distinct sound (later become more chaotic, and they started as pretty generic), and it is possible that sound was driven by some knowledge of theory (but not entirely essential; it's not like they are Zappa-level of complexity).
 
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Classical is only classical, tho. It's pretty samey in its way. But lots of the stuff I find snore worthy shares characteristics too. WAP isn't gross, it's just boring AF. As one lonely example.

Saw your edit now! This is pretty much on point, from what I can tell. I disliked WAP mostly because I prefer stuff with some heftier harmonic movements, the beat isn't very interesting to me, and the popularity of the song is quite carried by the lyrics' transgression, something I neither find transgressive, nor something I don't care much about. I'm not a lyrics person. That said, it's symptomatic of a few recent releases that try to emulate early hip hop's groove simplicity. Whether it's succesful in this regard, I'm less sure. At least for WAP. And it's less celebrated for this reason among its consumers.

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So, Kyr, a few things here that I can make notes about...

But if we are going by musical composition, obviously classical music is massively more varied than pop music.

Honestly, no. In classical we're dealing pretty much only variations of cadences, moving towards the perfect. If you don't like the cadence as a harmonic movement, you're usually screwed when trying to find something you like. It's basically the same problem as four chord songs, except they have a few variations beyond the Axis of Awesome parody piece (which also varies between two different four chord structures). Classical is basically just seeing how you can make variations over I-IV-V-I, which is incredibly samey. There are a few arguments that can be made for how these variations provide, well, variation, since classical was all about a number of techniques to try and make the same chord progression interesting. But the very same thing holds true for pop.

For starters, most pop musicians are both self-taught and (more crucially) not knowledgeable in music theory

Debatable, depending on what you mean by music theory. If you mean they aren't knowledgable in music theory, you're wrong, because classical theory is not the only thing to nkow. If you mean they aren't knowledgable in classical music theory, you're sometimes right, but even there it's often something they know about (particularly vocalists), and if not it's incredibly irrelevant to know classical music theory for a roster of genres.

Like, if I do electronic music, it's just more important to know how to do sidechain than knowing that I shouldn't end a piece on a plagal cadence.

Pop music is one of those fields where (for a number of reasons*) people usually are happy to work with rediscovering stuff and not even be able to name them let alone standardize and study why they arise as phenomena, which is like pre-greek mathematicians who didn't even have the notion of a theorem :smug: :)

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

*Before university, I sort of was one such "musician"; I played electric guitar (as lead) and only cared about playing 1 million notes/second, instead paying no attention to theory past the most basic scales. So I can see the allure - it's just not as musical. It was one of the reasons why I gave up immediately when university started; I wouldn't have had, if I was actually trained as a musician.

Hrm. Classical has that exact problem that you outline here, you know. Its usages of scales is incredibly conservative. When I started on musicology I had to rewire my whole way of listening to minor scales because the classical ear couldn't, like, deal with having a leading tone that wasn't a half tone. When I much rather prefer a minor 7th to the prime. It sounded like a Middle Eastern scale to me.
 
And your take is pretty lamey in its way.

Sorry, wanted to come back to it. I'm sure it is. I like particular sorts of sounds. Do you have a top five for me to trundle through? Was just thinking it might be fun.

Top Five Musics of the Classicals

5. Charles Gounod - Ave Maria
4. Antonio Vivaldi - The Four Seasons, Summer
3. Carl Orff - Carmina Burana, O Fortuna
2. Giuseppe Verdi - Messa Da Requiem, Dies Irae
1. Samuel Barber - Adagio for Strings
 
Just about every new tune uses 4 beats to the bar time signatures
this is the first decade that featured triplets loudly and clearly in pop music so prominently the time signatures could be easily described as a 4/4 and 12/8 poly meter and you’re still missing the part where only with the rise of electronic music you’re hearing sounds in pop music that will only be heard in that one song and never before or again.
 
I will be 42 in a couple of weeks, I am not old, and I hate new music.
My nephews listen Reggaeton and I consider it vomitive
 
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