Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Stringer1313, Jan 13, 2018.
I'm cool with Hannibal leading Carthage, but I want to see them with an ancient naval UU.
It could make since as a harbor as well but since England already has one I thought that a early shipyard would work as well with the production bonus and the exp for naval units.I think it could work as in it gave extra defense for ships on the tile similar to the Ha Long Bay, but that might make it to OP with the rest of the abilities it has. Plus there was a section of the Cothon for merchant ships which is the reasoning for the extra trade route capacity.
The term only applies to the fortified military portion of a harbor. It doesn't apply to the whole harbor.
The Canaanite languages, including Hebrew and Phoenician/Punic, formed a dialect continuum. Hebrew and Phoenician are the Canaanite languages we understand the best: others, like Edomite, Moabite, and Ammonite are poorly attested and look more like Hebrew than Phoenician. Phoenician is distinctive for shifting all stressed /a aː/ to /o oː/ except after a pharyngeal (this shift was either irregular or governed by poorly understood conditions in Hebrew), collapsing all of /s ʃ ɬ/ > /s/, and shifting unstressed /a/ > /i/ before double-closed syllables. Also, Phoenician did not exhibit begadkefet (though Neo-Punic exhibited an unconditioned shift of /p/ > /f/). Specifically, the Phoenician (and Carthaginian) terms for themselves were Pōnnīm "Phoenician" (whence both Phoenician and Punic) or Kᵉnaʿanīm "Canaanites" (see also Augustine's "Chanani")--also occasionally Ṣūrīm "Tyrians."
Not gonna lie, I kinda love the idea of a harbor that can defend itself like an encampment.
Just want to add to that that the Hebrews never identified as Canaanite, but viewed the Canaanites as a separate group with a different culture. They were also unusually meticulous about keeping records of their genealogy, which shows that despite language similarities, ethnically they are not so closely related.
first time poster long time lurker, but I think Carthage is a must include to the series....with the new game mechanics, and especially with the theme of Rise and Fall, they could be a really cool civ....Rome's rise to prominence as the power in the Mediterranean coincided with Carthage's fall
that said, a couple of characteristics that I think would be key to be included:
-- given Carthage's heavy reliance on mercenaries, some sort of reduction to the cost of purchasing units as the civ ability
-- I like the idea of a harbor district building that is able to defend itself
-- Hannibal leader agenda: The Lion's Brood; the 2nd Punic War was fueled by Hannibal's rage towards the Roman's for repeatedly breaking promises made in the treaty from the 1st Punic War, so Hannibal's agenda including an extreme negative reaction against civs that break promises....also like the idea of units being able to cross mountains if within range of a great general along with double the GG combat bonuses
-- Quinqeremes and elephants as UUs
I think there's a lot to work with that could make it a pretty awesome civ
It would be interesting if Carthage could just build encampments on coastal tiles. It's not a perfectly literal interpretation, but close enough (rather like representing Khmer's barays as just aqueducts).
Seems like if they are focused on recruiting mercenaries, then they should have a juiced-up ability to levy units from city-states. Would be pretty cool if city-states weren't usually mired in the ancient-medieval eras, but it's not as if Carthage made it too far anyway.
And using the elephants as basically a mechanical justification for a civ to be able to cross mountains works for me.
Agreed about the Mercenary aspect of Carthage's military. Wasn't majority of their land army made of paid mercenaries? Carthage should have a discount on land unit purchases, perhaps could purchase other civ units when they're adjacent to Carthaginian lands? (this would drive other civs pretty mad)
Carthage was a superb Merchant and Sailor nation foremost, not a militaristic one. They could afford Numidian archers and Gallic swordsmen as mercenaries because they were rich.
Carthaginians founded cities in Iberia because of the abundance of resources there. Resources they could later sell in far away places for significant profit.
I'd like to see them back with both, quinquereme and elephants, led by Hannibal.
When dealing with them in the game Carthaginians should present similar problem as they did once for Rome: Carthage owns a powerful navy and controls the sea trade, do we fight/conquer them or let them own the seas, trade and riches?
Carthaginians originated in Phoenicia but having both in the game at some point would make good sense. Phoenicia was less expansionistic then Carthage.
Analogy between them would be like Britain and USA. Carthaginians came from Phoenicia but created a much larger, richer and more powerful empire than their old country (aka US being Carthage and Phoenicia Britain).
For a time both were contemporary, Carthage aided Phoenicians for some time, until Phoenicia was conquered by the Persian Empire. The fact that Phoenicia consisted of city states, similar to Greece, unlike the more unified Carthage probably didn't help them in the end.
Genetically they were certainly Canaanite, but yes, for religious reasons their culture developed very differently from other Canaanites.
Moderator Action: Let's keep this thread just to Carthage, these other facets are best talked about in the history forum
Here's my take on a R&F Carthage could be.
UA: Legacy of Phoenicia - Extra trade route capacity for each cleared barbarian encampment and city state you are suzerain of. Military units can be purchased with gold at a -33% discount.
UB: Cothon (replaces lighthouse) - Makes the Harbour District act like an encampment for defence purposes, +2 gold for trade routes coming from this city
UU: Numidian Cavalry (replaces Horseman) - -1 movement to adjacent enemy units (cannot reduce moves to less than 1).
Leader 1: Hannibal
Agenda: Never Forgets - Hates any civ that it has been at war with in the past, or that has been at war with the city states it holds suzerain. Like civs that are peaceful and have few cities.
LUA: The Punic Wars - Support and flanking combat bonuses are doubled. Gets great general points twice as fast. Great general (and any unit they are stacked with) are invisible to non-adjacent enemy units and can move on mountains.
Leader 2: Dido
Agenda: Trade monopoliser - Dislikes civs with more trade routes than her. Likes civs that have trade posts in her cities.
LUA: Onto new shores - Coastal cities get +1 district limit and automatically gain shallow water tile within 3 hexes of it.
The UA is there to make a real trade focused civ, and the theme is that Phoenicia and Carthage dealt with local tribes violently (aka, raising) or peacefully (becoming suzerain) to establish their trade network. In gameplay terms, you'll get a boost in the very early game by raising barbs, and this will slowly increase as the game goes on and you control city states. The bonus to buying units is there to give you something to do with all that gold.
The UB is fairly self explanatory, I took the idea from this thread. It's not a Harbour replacement so as not to clash with England. Bonus gold is to make this more a purely warlike UB, and give further synergy with the UA. There are too many elephant UUs, this is to give a bit of diversity. The bonus represents the 'hamstringing' technique they used and is a fun variant of the varu ability.
Hannibal is a fairly likely leader, even if we'd all rather have Hamilcar. The Agenda refers to the start of the 2nd punic war, while the UA is an obvious reference to his crossing of the alps, ambushes and flanking manoeuvres. With the penchant for female leaders, Dido is also likely. As a legendary figure there isn't much to go on here, so this makes her a typical trade/colonisation type of civ to rival england. That doesn't mean that I ever see a Carthaginian civ as having two leaders, but that these are the two I can see happening.
I must Disagree with the first part of this statement, the one about Byzantium being a linear extension of Roman Empire.
First of all: Byzantium was a major world power, in several civ aspects: great military power, religious centre, influential culture, also great commercially and a naval power.
Byzantium lasted for nearly a thousand years after the fall of Rome/Western Roman Empire.
It' s original because it was the very first Christian Empire of history. Orthodox faith is older than Catholicism.
Rome was Polyheistic, not Christian.
Their armies differed significantly, Rome replied on heavy infantry and Byzantium on cavalry.
Byzantine Great General, Belisarius, was one of the greatest military leaders of all time.
Byzantium has at least 3 Unique and Distinct units, different from Roman ones, which already appeared as UU's in the game, or not yet (Dromons, Cataphracts and Varangian Guard).
A pantheon of available Great Leaders, separate and different from Roman Caesars are readily available to choose from got Byzantium. Although, almost like in Rome, most of them were male emperors.
The official languages were Greek and Latin unlike in Rome.
Byzantium was an extension of both, Classical Rome and Ancient Greece with significant Near Eastern influences because of its geographical location. They were different from their predecessors, Romans and Greeks, because of the great religion the Byzantines adopted.
Byzantium is far different from Rome, Constantinopolis was one of the greatest cities in the world during the Medieval Era.
Hope I proved here that Byzantium was an original culture/civilization, a greatly influential political and military power for hundreds of years, with its own great religion. A distinct Empire, more than worthy to be included in every iteration of a game dealing with the history of Civilization.
If clashing with England is a problem then maybe the Cothon should just replace the Encampment and should be built along the coast.
Some way to pay off barbarians to join your empire would be cool.
I'm no expert on Carthage, but based on the discussion here, perhaps the Cothon could replace the shipyard. Besides being cheaper, it could give the harbor the ability to attack (as someone above suggested for the harbor)
If clashing with England is such a problem then I guess a unique ability that makes all regular harbors defend could suffice. I can't see them having anything else besides ancient maritime infrastructure though.
Another option for Hannibal would be to leverage the new War of Retribution for broken promises - something like extra military production or combat bonuses.
That's why I suggested an early shipyard replacement. Bonus production and naval xp to make them a naval powerhouse early in game. Defending harbor for as part of the UA could work as well or be another part of the building's ability.
The Shipyard is sooo far down the tech tree though. I'd almost rather have a quinqereme unit that creates 2 units after building 1.
Well, they could move the improvement to a much earlier tech (or civic).
I put it at shipbuilding though with the quinquereme.
Arabia gets the Madrasa at Theology instead of Education so it's possible.
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