Why does anyone care if CivIV is more complex than Civ V or visa-versa?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Mathochism, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. Mathochism

    Mathochism Chieftain

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    I mean, really, the only reason people seem to be arguing about whether one game is more complex than the other is to devalue the opinions of people who support the game they dislike. Have we forgotten that Civilization is, you know, a game? And that a game's purpose isn't to be complex, but instead fun? If the addition of reduction of complexity positively or negatively affects your view of Civ V, then that's fine. But arguing about how complex the game actually just for the sake of trying to prove the haters on either side of the argument wrong is pointless. It's not going to change anyone's views and just serves to feed the flames.

    Personally, I prefer Civ V. I don't care if it's less or more complex than Civ IV, since I prefer Civ V's mechanics to Civ IV. I like the heavier emphasis on macro-management in Civ V than in previous iterations and I like the war-game feel. I'm not new to the series, as I've been playing Civ games since Civ II (and countless other 4x games), and I'm not an RTS fan, so, any of the common "negative" arguments as to why I like Civ V go out the window. It simply boils down to me having different preferences in my strategy games.

    I like what I like and you like what you like. Civ V fans aren't going to persuade people who dislike Civ V that it's a good game and people who dislike Civ V aren't going to persuade Civ V fans that Civ V is a bad game. So, seriously, just stop it.
     
  2. Warspite2

    Warspite2 Prince

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    I kind of think there are too many comparisons in this forum regarding the two games. The bottomline, no matter what they are BOTH civilization games. Its kind of like people are quick to jump the "new guy" who is Civ V before they really get to know him. Then when they get to know him and realize he is a good guy, they back down ;) Kind of like a new quarterback, don't bash him until you see him play ball and give him a bit of time to develop his skills, he may eventually become the best in the league.
     
  3. EmpireOfCats

    EmpireOfCats Death to Giant Robots

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    Ah, no. It is because some of us enjoy complexity. Civ always had second-rate graphics, and turn-based play doesn't get your blood pounding -- but it was a game where you had to think, and plan, and make hard choices. If I want little people running around on the map shooting arrows at each other, I'll play Age of Kings.

    Moving away from complexity is moving away from what drew me to Civ in the first place. Maybe it makes business sense for Firaxis, the same way it makes more sense for Valve to turn from the PC to the console crowd with Left 4 Dead 2. But for me, it ruins the reason why I like(d) the game.

    Civ V has in fact added complexity in some parts -- combat is the best example. This is good (once they get the combat AI up to speed). But at the same time, they took out so much stuff and removed choices that the total effect is a game that for me at least currently doesn't have the same appeal as Civ IV.

    Simply put, for some of us, complexity is fun.
     
  4. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    I think someone should make a mod: Civ5 Complex Edition.
     
  5. falconne

    falconne meep

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    Consider this post my pre-order
     
  6. mike_cf

    mike_cf Chieftain

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    Yeah, Fireaxis...
     
  7. dannythefool

    dannythefool King

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    It's just that there are two groups of people here.

    One expected a fun game that vaguely looks like a Civ title.

    Another expected an improved version of Civ IV+BtS.
     
  8. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    IMO Civ5 is still vastly more than 'vaguely like' a Civ title. Even CivRev, as much as I don't like to say it, was very obviously a Civ title. :(

    So either there is at least a third group who you didn't describe, or I'm deluded in thinking I'm not in either of the two groups you described.
     
  9. dannythefool

    dannythefool King

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    There is probably a third group in the middle, and a fourth one that didn't have any expectations and bought the game because of some marketing campaign :) But they seem to be less vocal regarding complexity of the game.
     
  10. 3v0L

    3v0L Chieftain

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    Indeed. Complexitiy = Challenging = FUN.

    In the case of civ 4 , there was(is) no other game that offers that level of complexity and has solid gameplay mechanics to support that complexity.

    So it is normal that players get pissed off when they remove some of that depth. They have no other option then to go play civ 4 again or chess perhaps :p

    After playing 4 full singleplayer games now I can confidently say that this is a step back for the series (except for the hexes and one unit/tile ) even if compared to vanilla civ 4
     
  11. dalowrider

    dalowrider Chieftain

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    Though I do think Civ V is less complex;
    I would equate the "fun-ness" to the horrible but applicable "chick parabola" concept described in the 1up review

    At about 40 hours in I was having a blast enjoying the new features, but once I hit about 75 hours in, after I gave it a chance and the gloss wore off I could see the glaring holes of the game

    The last 5 days Ive struggled to put another hour in
     
  12. moscaverde

    moscaverde Prince

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    I somewhat agree with the op (although I disliked civ 5).
    The two games are complex, but each with different aproaches.
    The question should be is it fun? But thats personal too.
     
  13. kuukkeli

    kuukkeli King

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    Pretty much this. Of course being fun is not just about complexity but in a game like Civilization it's definitely a large factor.

    My disappointment with the game stems from overall experience of not having very much fun while playing. I don't think the game is completely hopeless though so I continue to play little at a time to better learn why I don't have as much fun as I had with Civ4. If nothing else is accomplished by that at least I can tell if the eventual expansion is addressing the issues I had (if not then I'm not buying). And no, I don't need the game to be changed to Civ4.5 - all I want is that it becomes as fun to play as Civ4 was.
     
  14. Fistleaf

    Fistleaf Chieftain

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    The complexity from Civ4 comes from the ability to make decisions about many things, religion, espionage, corporations, mix-and-match civics, great people generation, stacking military units with different promotions, etc. You can have fun making use of any of these features or just choose not to use them.
    Civ5 seems to simplify the decision-making process by removing many of these features aka "dumbing down".
     
  15. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    2 days with the game here and it seems readily apparent that Civ 5 is barely even a skeleton of the depth of gameplay offered by Civ 4. Considering that the civ series has always maintained a huge fanbase precisely because of the depth of play and scale of the game, this seems to be a very poor decision. I expect they'll still do well in sales, but it's a major step back in the meat of this franchise and unless they offer a whole lot more depth in future expansions, I, for the first time in 15 years, will ignore a Civ product.
     

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