Why does everyone like individual unit promotions?

I really doubt this lends much to your argument, first of all because I think it's highly improbable any player regularly gets C5 out of the gates early on any high level game, and secondly because I play high level games all the time. It's more of an anecdote, and doesn't really represent gameplay. What you really see is the tedium of C1 & CII versus CRI and CRII, and things like siege unit promotions being especially pointless after the siege unit changes since vanilla. Promotions are just tedious - if it weren't for the traits relating to them and rather abusable things like using promotions to heal a lot extra, they add very little even to a human player's game.

If you're presuming somebody you have an empire ahead in tech, already conquered everyone else, etc... then of course you could be expected to win, but promotions don't really help with that. The difference between regular units and promoted units is very neglible in most games, and when you do get promotions, it tends to be applied everywhere, nothing making units very unique besides the occasional Medic 3 General.



You need 2 Battleships or 1 Battleship and one Bomber to kill that. In fact, that was an example I already used in my post - getting promotions on naval units takes ridiculous amounts of time for very little benefit. After all the work it takes to upgrade old troops to CRIII Rifles, they can just be beaten by regular rifles and cannons anyway. You probably are assuming tech and other advantages everywhere you go - promotions give a little extra push towards domination when already in the lead, but they don't really matter that much.

And one other response:



I didn't say and wouldn't necessarily be out to argue this is a majority of total people playing the game. In fact, I hope it's quite the opposite, which is why I think the developers really should heed such calls to avoid single-minded focuses. However, it is a large proportion of people arguing in threads like these though, so I welcome it if you have the time to read over tons of posts for yourself. Part of the problem is a large number of people never express opinions on different issues - if all they ever do is pop in to comment on one thing about war, you don't really know what they are after, but what they say is often along those lines.



See, the thing is, I really do not think that is the case. It's rather self-evident from player consensus, for one - if promotions were too powerful, Aggressive would commonly be rated as the very top trait, and routinely it is rated rather in the dumps. Promotions combined with technological and other advantages led to snowball effects - I think Sonoreal rightly pointed out how this works. But they usually are far less effective than defensive positions, collateral damage and other factors turn out to be. I think players would be hard pressed to find a time when a single but highly promoted unit on flat land could take on armies. The AI having a CGIII unit in a city on a hill with a castle may have stymied a lot of attacks - but when you look at it the promotions aren't even a majority of the bonuses to strength, and enough catas still take down the city.

On their own, especially without certain abuses (eg. healing) they matter too little for the effort, especially past the first couple of tiers. Managing to get 5 XP/2 promotions instead of 0 is fine, but at the same time everyone can do it, and then that civ's troops are hardly much different in effect from somebody with 5 Great Generals settled down somewhere and 17 XP on their troops.

I will stress though that as I said, I favor making promotions more rare and thus unique in return for making individual promotions stronger. Civ4's system just can't be said to be that overbearing and is often tedious, which was the problem.

If you make promotions more rare but more powerful, you are just turning civ into a tactical tile *cough* I mean hex based game. Those games already exist. Civilization is a game on a strategic scale. Individual unit uniqueness shouldn't exist. The differences in strength (and role) is already represented by there being different types of units (legions, catapults, tanks).

I have earlier though, it would make sense for one military to be more well equipped or supplied, or trained than another. This could take the form of military wide promotions (as opposed to individual unit promotions), which would give you an edge against a less prepared foe.
 
Ah, I see you were against promotions entirely. I guess that could explain why you didn't like them in civ4 too - but they definitely aren't as overpowered in civ4 as they could have been or similar things are in mods and other games.

That's ok too, don't want to argue at cross-purposes. For matter of fact, I am rather against one-unit-per-tile and a lot of the changes already made that are turning civ5 much more into a tactical wargame, I'm not looking for more of that in basic civ5.

However promotions/Generals and so on are already in the game, as well as these other elements, so within that I think I am still hoping to see promotions be more rare and more specific. Again don't think we have confirmation either way, but most of all I'd hope to avoid the tedium of minor little promotions for every unit.
 
I think that 1upt will help promotions a lot, in terms of making units seem special and worth protecting; you'll have the option to keep your elite unit behind the line as a reserve, which is very historically realistic. And especially for the ranged units, you will have a pretty good chance to protect them until they become festooned with promotions.



I have always liked the idea of promotions, even though they weren't always meaningful in the stack combat of Civ IV (I used most of my Great Generals for Warlords, even though I'm sure they would have done much better as Academies). In Civ V there is at least the possibility that there will be much more opportunity to become attached to upgraded units, which I think is the whole idea of the system.
 
If you make promotions more rare but more powerful, you are just turning civ into a tactical tile *cough* I mean hex based game.
Civ4 already was a tactical tile game. Building a line of archers to protect early improvements from raging barbarians is almost a necessity on emperor/marathon. But it sucks having to build those extra units in an L-shape for diagonal coverage. Makes it more likely to have vulnerable units out in the open on flat terrain. So hex will be nice.

Where promotions really shine is defenders. Promotions to defend hills and forests tiles add a good element of strategy. And scouting out enemy territory to see who has the most promoted archers. Personally I like the idea of a great general who doesn't go into battle that you only send into battle when he has 100% odds. Kind of realistic that you wouldn't send a real-life general into battle. There are a lot of quirks with getting promotions for skills that you haven't earned but generally the idea is good in my opinion.
 
Civ 4 took the promotion idea too far, in which a *single* unit could dominate, and defeat an entire opponent's army, or at least batter an enemy to the point of defeat.

And why is that a problem? There are numerous real world examples of amazing successes by small or unique forces (or almost successes):

Agincourt
Thermopylae (betrayal ended it)
Guildford Court House
Battle of Sabine Pass
Stirling Bridge
 
I really doubt this lends much to your argument, first of all because I think it's highly improbable any player regularly gets C5 out of the gates early on any high level game, and secondly because I play high level games all the time. It's more of an anecdote, and doesn't really represent gameplay. What you really see is the tedium of C1 & CII versus CRI and CRII, and things like siege unit promotions being especially pointless after the siege unit changes since vanilla.

Cha + Imp:

Barracks (+3 Exp) + Theocracy (+2 Exp) + Stable (+2 Exp) + Vassalage (+2 Exp) + 2 Great Generals (+4 Exp) = 13 Exp => Combat IV. Later you can add West Point and 2 more Great Generals and produce Combat V Battleships every turn if you so wish.

If you manage to get GW, it's even better. You just have to provoke some numbskull until he/she gets enough and send a couple of SOD's in your direction. Wait until they enter your cultural borders, and then you can slaughter them easily with a few catapults and some highly promoted elephants.

I would say that this tactic is fairly easy to use on all levels but possible Deity (On the other hand, no tactics are easy to use on Deity level :) ).

I'm going to try out this method with the otherwise useless Charlemagne. If I can manage to create a good bottleneck against Shaka or Monty, GW + Imp + Pro may give me tons of Great Leaders early.
 
OT: Do not underestimate Charlemagne - great UB and pretty good UU
 
If you wanted to put promotions into a Civ game, I would much rather then be Civilization/military-wide promotions. For example, after gaining a total of, say, 25 experience points in combat, or 5 pts per military unit you have, you get a promotion for all units across the board. This represents improvements to your overall military system/generalship/military training.
Very well put and sound idea. I agree completely.

Unique promotions to single units work in historical games set in one war, but are out of place in a game that spans all eras and all wars in a civilization's history.
 
Very well put and sound idea. I agree completely.

Unique promotions to single units work in historical games set in one war, but are out of place in a game that spans all eras and all wars in a civilization's history.

That's an extremely bad idea. There's a reason why "civilization" wide promotions aren't in the game, they don't make sense.

Already, you can build barracks and stables which reflect the further training of your units but for your troops to gain further promotions, they need to see combat.

With civilization-wide promotions, it becomes as simple as sending your strongest units into a war and getting promotions for all the units if your civilization, even ones who never seen combat.
 
Specialization is present in modern militaries the same as it was present in militaries of the past.

While I would agree that in Civ IV terms Combat promotions are typically the norm for a unit, we have specialist units like the Rangers that are specifically trained in forest or jungle combat. We have Marines that are drilled on amphibious assaults, there are units that focus on city fighting or become proficient at city fighting based on their experience. Also, the Swiss have what is seen as the worlds most elite alpine fighting force. Finally you have great examples in history of the drill promotion being present in highly trained early rifle armies. The Redcoats for example were so feared because they could flat out fire more often than the other guys.

In the end, I think promotions are a great plan and while keeping the same unit over thousands of years is a little far-fetched, think of empires that have spanned long periods of time. Rome had 30 Legions at the height of Pax Romana and each one carried on its own tradition. In modern times, you have American units like the 7th Calvary which were at one time decimated (Custer's Last Stand), but reinforced and redeployed (most notably as air calvary in Vietnam at the Battle of Ia Drang).

To address the second point about upgrades, I think they should be automatic or players should be required to upgrade or disband/settle a unit when new technology appears. Low promotion units can be resettled in cities and high promotion units can get the new weapons and training. I'd even be fine if a unit that becomes obsolete is allowed to settle in a city and build a free barracks or walls. After one discovers military tradition and some sort of military academy is built highly promoted units (level 5 or higher) can be settled to provide 1xp to new units as instructors.

All thoughts for modding to be sure!
 
Specialization is present in modern militaries the same as it was present in militaries of the past.

While I would agree that in Civ IV terms Combat promotions are typically the norm for a unit, we have specialist units like the Rangers that are specifically trained in forest or jungle combat. We have Marines that are drilled on amphibious assaults, there are units that focus on city fighting or become proficient at city fighting based on their experience. Also, the Swiss have what is seen as the worlds most elite alpine fighting force. Finally you have great examples in history of the drill promotion being present in highly trained early rifle armies. The Redcoats for example were so feared because they could flat out fire more often than the other guys.

That would be...well...awesome if we saw some units fight better on defense *and* offense in the desert, mountains, jungle, tundra, amphibious, and urban environments (surrounding big cities?) accurate to specific civilizations, units, whatever. It would just be awesome. Defense only is just...meh.
 
That would be...well...awesome if we saw some units fight better on defense *and* offense in the desert, mountains, jungle, tundra, amphibious, and urban environments (surrounding big cities?) accurate to specific civilizations, units, whatever. It would just be awesome. Defense only is just...meh.

I believe that we do have that in Civ IV, but you need to get woodsman/guerrilla III first. :sad: Still, not too hard with the Celts or Aztecs, and I believe it was a hefty 50% attack bonus along with another perk.
 
Not everyone, I don't either. unless to build Hero epic or West point, I don't care about the single unit promotion at all, as I always build numerous army to attack.

While if in Civ5 "Units are much more valuable now" as Tylerryan79 said, then I think I have to focus on singles.
 
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