Why does Spain get no love?

My main point by bringing up Henry and Elizabeth was that there was much more of a possible Catholic rebellion in England (in fact I think there were a couple of half-assed ones) than there was a Protestant one in France or the Iberian peninsula. When Henry started the Anglican church most of England was still majority Catholic. When Elizabeth was in charge there was still a large amount of Catholics in the country, not to mention a lot of nobles who were still Catholic. And I believe that the majority of Henry's military officers were Catholic as well. I'm not saying they would have, or they wanted to, I'm just saying it would have been stupid, especially considering the intrigue that occured in the relatively short period between Henry and Elizabeth's reigns.

And Philip may not have necessarily brought the inquisition to England (although I think he would have), but he would certainly have curbed Protestant power there and definitely would have increased the authority and influence of the Catholic nobles, or at least tried to. He wanted to make himself King after all!
This is true, good points.
Of course, when Henry made the split, in the very beginning, fully every other single Christian was RC in his empire... until he actually enforced the split. Personally, I am glad that the people of England were given a choice, because that is kind of the message of Christianity... "choose". Not a bad thing to have an option.

Interestingly, Spain is still very religious, where as the countries that fought for the existence of Protestantism, in particular Sweden, the churches are pretty darn empty.

Anyhow, back to the point. I think Phillip II would be a pretty good option as a second leader, when its all said and done. I just took issue with someone saying he was no more of a zealot than Henry (who was basically a selfish prick) and Elizabeth (who led a pretty poor personal life due to her choice to remain a Protestant and the contemporary repercussions of that choice).

I did add El Cid as a choice for my Spain... very cool leaderhead.
 
My main point by bringing up Henry and Elizabeth was that there was much more of a possible Catholic rebellion in England (in fact I think there were a couple of half-assed ones) than there was a Protestant one in France or the Iberian peninsula. When Henry started the Anglican church most of England was still majority Catholic. When Elizabeth was in charge there was still a large amount of Catholics in the country, not to mention a lot of nobles who were still Catholic. And I believe that the majority of Henry's military officers were Catholic as well. I'm not saying they would have, or they wanted to, I'm just saying it would have been stupid, especially considering the intrigue that occured in the relatively short period between Henry and Elizabeth's reigns.

And Philip may not have necessarily brought the inquisition to England (although I think he would have), but he would certainly have curbed Protestant power there and definitely would have increased the authority and influence of the Catholic nobles, or at least tried to. He wanted to make himself King after all!
Like i said before, people in Anglo-Saxon countries tend to darken both Philip II and the Inquisition a lot. I live in the only country that was occupied in Philip II kingdom ( well in his words, he inherited, conquered it and bought it :/ ) and i can tell exactly what Philip II did to ocuppied countries: first and far before the military move , he would bribe a lot of the nobles to desert in the worst hour( most likely he did the same in England ), he would move a most likely symbolic force against the enemy and then the turncoats would show their hand. Then he would make a mock-up crowning, leave some high ranked noble as Viceroy and leave to the Inqusition the issue of rounding any resistors ( remember, the Bible says that all authorities are established by gGod, so rebelling is going against someone that God chosen ... so rebeling is a sin and can be adressed by a religious court ;) ). That was what happened here and I don't expect that would be any diferent if that half baked plan of the Armada had worked and spanish troops had conquered England. The diferences in religion would only make things more colourful, but not substantially diferent... most likely the resistors would be protestant and the turncoats catholics, but that is all. Unlike it was sold by the Elizabethean propaganda, most likely there would not be anything as mass murdering and the burning of London....

True, but excommunication was not followed by all out war against the RC peoples... like we saw as a result of the Reformation.

There was more differences in Orthodoxy than just that one thing... the hierarchical structure is was led to the problems within RC in my opinion... because power corrupted.

In the end, the RC has been hugely beneficial to the planet with its outreach programs, etc... but during the medieval period and renaissance, there were definitely some huge problems. Mainly when the RC was trying to be a temporal power also...
True enough, but that is because the orthodox churches tend to be extremely subservient to the state where they are and not the other way around, most likely due to not existing anything like a orthodox Vatican. And surely power corrupts, and the RC obviously is a good example of that. Don't think that I'm defending the RC : I come from a family of crypto-jews and the house of my mother's side grandfather still shows the cross that was made in the house of the "jews" in spite of most of the family being catholic nowadays ( I'm not either catholic or jew , but that is besides the point ), so I have enough of family stories of persecutions to know that RC was not exactly a friendly bunch in those days. But the RC is only diferent in size and organization of the other christian ( and not only ) groups in that regard ...

And responding to the other post you made after this one: think on this, Philip II was fighting protestant rebels in what would be the Dutch republic and a lot of it's enemies were protestants. My guess is that if you picked Elizabeth or Henry VIII and placed them as Spanish kings of the time they would had done the exact same things, given what did in England, and this regardless of how religious/unreligious they were.

Oh, and to the poster that compared Spain to Sweden: I can't talk much of Spain , but I live in a country that is sold as being as catholic as Spain, so I guess I can give a more based opinion on that. According to offcial data, more than 90% of the people that call themselfes "catholic" in Portugal will go to church once per year or less, and most of the times just because of some pagan ritual that by acident has a priest and was disguised as a catholic ritual ( the romarias and procissões ), or to baptisms , funerals or weddings or in Christmas and Easter. By some reason most of the people here define themselfes as "non-practising catholics" :crazyeye: when they are asked about what is their religion. The churches, besides the ocasions I mentioned before , are as much to the flies as I suppose they are in Sweden : small groups of more eldery people ... I guess that in Spain things should not be as diferent, given what spanish people I know tell me.
 
I speak only from my journeys to those countries, and conversations with the people.
It seems in Sweden, going once a year plus major events is even rare...

In Spain, as in Italy, there are processions and parades for saints, etc, where entire towns shut down. Some of these folks are certainly in name only, but still, its a pretty large happening.

As for Orthodoxy, Romania is an example where Orthodoxy has never really been subservient to the government, even the commie government. In the rest of E. Europe, the commie governments actively persecuted Orthodoxy, and that has left the churches weaker and more timid... but in history, this wasn't the case. More of a recent development as a result of a sort of commie "inquisition" basically.
 
Those events are not catholic in essence and I've seen enough of them happening without a priest ( when , by some reason a priest refuses to make them ) ... They are as catholic as the SuperBowl would be a muslim festival if a Muslim mullah opened and closed it or as jew as if the final of the soccer Champions League final would be if the refferee was a rabbi.
 
Those events are not catholic in essence and I've seen enough of them happening without a priest ( when , by some reason a priest refuses to make them ) ... They are as catholic as the SuperBowl would be a muslim festival if a Muslim mullah opened and closed it or as jew as if the final of the soccer Champions League final would be if the refferee was a rabbi.
The absence of a priest doesn't make it non-catholic. It happening only in Catholic areas does make it catholic though... wouldn't you say? I mean, Catholicism venerates saints to a good extent.
San Gennaro Festival? Or carrying Mary through the town in a procession? That's pretty darn heavy catholic imagery.
 
The absence of a RC priest makes them, by definition, non-catholic. It does not make them non-christian per se, surely , but given that orthodox also have festivals of the same kind ( you know, towns stopping and a crowd taking icons to the streets ) makes hard to defend your position that they are catholic just because they happend in lands nominally catholic. And to add , some of those saints don't even exist officially ( like Saint Christovan or Cosme and Damian ) ...
 
The absence of a RC priest makes them, by definition, non-catholic. It does not make them non-christian per se, surely , but given that orthodox also have festivals of the same kind ( you know, towns stopping ands a crowd taking icons to the streets ) makes hard to defend your position that they are catholic just because they happend in lands nominally catholic.
The absence of a RC priest makes an event Non-RC. Interesting.
I certainly don't agree with this, as there are only so many priests and so little time.
Those events occurring in Orthodox places are certainly Orthodox with or without a OC priest in attendance.
I think it is strange to say otherwise. Its a part of the RC culture... whether a priest is there or not.
 
Just to make clear, I was only stating that, if you say that you can call a event catholic just because you have a bunch of people carrying images of Mary, with or without a RC priest, then the orthodox people that do that are catholics. My wording was not clear enough, it seems...

And doing that is not part of the RC culture, given that catholics in, let's say, Japan ( that had a very interesting story of being hidden for centuries , much like crypto jews in here ) or Pakistan don't do that ( for obvious reasons ). It is part of the culture of people that live in places that, by acident, are mostly catholic ( in name only, most of the times ), but that does not make them Catholic.
 
Well, since I don't even really follow what the point is anymore... I guess its time to go back to the topic.

Add Phillip II for Spain, loser or winner being irrelevant (I mean, Monte lost, Sitting Bull lost, etc...)
His impact on the world was huge.
 
I have probably already mentioned this, but in my game Spain has Isabella (obviously), Charles V (he is also an option for the HRE), Philip II and Francisco Franco. Franco's really only in there because all the other WWII-era leaders are in the game now (Japan has Hirohito and Germany has Hitler).

Germany has Hitler ONLY because I made a Hitler LH along with some other artists in the modding community, so let's NOT discuss him here and my intention was not to do so by bringing him up, only to explain why I felt Franco should be in.

And just because there isn't a Priest there doesn't remove the Catholicness of an event. The people are still Catholics, I don't think he is saying the physical act itself is catholic (people go on parades all the time), but it is still Catholic. And even then there is bound to be a Catholic priest or official in a parade in Spain or Italy.
 
And just because there isn't a Priest there doesn't remove the Catholicness of an event. The people are still Catholics, I don't think he is saying the physical act itself is catholic (people go on parades all the time), but it is still Catholic. And even then there is bound to be a Catholic priest or official in a parade in Spain or Italy.
So, what makes a event catholic? :confused: By that definition , those orthodox events I quoted in Greece or Russia are catholics ... hey ,even the communists during the Spanish civic war carrying pictures of La Passionaria in the streets were making a catholic event by that definition :p
 


Folks, do not try this at home!

What makes those events not catholic? The people celebrating it are not even "nominally" catholic for one thing...

What I can't figure out is, why are you even arguing this inane point?
 
Well, I would like that someone explained me why does a event that has no RC priest and that is in honor of a entity that the RC does not recognize as part of the "saints" can be called a catholic event. Pardon me for my ignorance, but if you go that way, every event in the world can be called catholic if you go that way as long as there are 2 catholics there ...

I would be happy to close this OT , but I can't stand lack of coherence ;)
 
Well, I would like that someone explained me why does a event that has no RC priest and that is in honor of a entity that the RC does not recognize as part of the "saints" can be called a catholic event. Pardon me for my ignorance, but if you go that way, every event in the world can be called catholic if you go that way as long as there are 2 catholics there ...

I would be happy to close this OT , but I can't stand lack of coherence ;)
OK, I am referring to events like the two I mentioned:
San Gennaro Festival? Or carrying Mary through the town in a procession?
Those are catholic events, priest present or not.
If the event has nothing to do with Catholicism, we aren't saying it is catholic simply because it is in a catholic country.

I am not sure what events you are referring to... but now I have reiterated the type of events I am referring to.
 
I refered them two-folded : first, events with "official" saints but no priest, like when the priest asks more cash for making weddings and the people simply boycott him ( seen that enough around here... it happens atleast once per year ;) ), second events with priest in honor of non-offiical saints, like St. Christovan ( that was demoted by Rome ) or Sts Cosme and Damian ( that , believe it or not , come from a budhist legend that somehow got to Europe and was christianized ), that I quoted before ... I could even quote a lot more, like the myriad of Marys that are around here or things like the "Holy name of God". If you call both this kinds of event catholic ( as i assumed you did by the speech you made in the previous posts ) you can call anything a catholic event.

And by the third time, carrying images of saints is neither a catholic obligation or something restricted to catholics. Hence you can't use that as the defining caracher of a event being catholic or not, unlike, let's say, a pilgrinage to Mecca is a clear Muslim event ( given that non-Muslims are forbidden in Mecca nowadays and that going to Mecca is commadement of the Muslim faith )
 
This is really nitpicky at this point.
Look, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, acts like a duck... its a duck.
So endeth my participation in this topic.
 
Look, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, acts like a duck... its a duck.
Be sure you don't try to cook the next movie with a duck you see :mischief:

P.S In a calmer mood: I only continued this argument because your line of thought included a circular reasoning: Spain is filled with catholics. We know they are catholics because they participate in catholic events. We know those events are catholic because they are done by catholics.... when I tried to ask from you a clearer definition of what is catholic event you were unable or unwilling to give a solid definition. IMHO the only possible definition of a catholic ( or Muslim, Jew, Ba'hai or whatever ) event is simple: has a priest of that religion presiding to it and it is mandated by the religion rules. People carrying images of saints in the streets don't fill that definition in case of RC, given that you don't need to make that to be a catholic ( and worse, there are people that do that and aren't catholics ) . So using that to define a country as filled with catholics is falacious ( if you use my definition OFC, but given that you failed to produce your own, I don't have other to use here )
 
it`s just a game,never mind
Mali has the best leader and great uu,is that gonna make Americans unhappy?
 
Spain is lovely nothing to hate,the people are more friendly than in any country of europe,the fantastic clima is always an advantage,nice food,who have complains?

Thanks.
 
Top Bottom