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Why does the Pyramids give free granaries?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Princeof Persia, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. Princeof Persia

    Princeof Persia The Empire wasn't bad

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    I think it's because of Joseph in the Bible. He stored the food near pyramids. But is that right for Civ III?
     
  2. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    It is just a method used in the game, not sure it has any special meaning. It could be they got the concept from the bible, but we have no way of knowing if that person knew about the bible.
     
  3. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    Not because of Joseph, it is just a game thing. In Civ I and/or CivII The Pyramids gave you access to every form of government and I don't see how that relates to a large stone edifice made by slave labor.

    Most of the affects of the Wonders are arbitrary, anyway.
     
  4. Princeof Persia

    Princeof Persia The Empire wasn't bad

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    I think the best wonder (based on its history) is maybe the Great Wall in Civ III or IV. Counter-Barbarian.
     
  5. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Well it does the same in Civ5.
     
  6. scratchthepitch

    scratchthepitch Chieftain

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    Egypt was a grain producing powerhouse in the ancient world. This is one of the main reasons for their longevity and size. They were one of the major exporters and are famous for this. The other major grain producers in the Mediterranean ancient world were the northern shore of the Black Sea and Sicily. The Pyramids giving granaries probably is to represent Egypt's reputation of being a massive producer of grain.

    On the other hand, the game developers might have had Pyramids give granaries because they wanted one of the wonders to do that, and chose which at random. Given the ignorance of much of the other "history" represented in the game, there is a distinct possibility that is the more likely reason. :D
     
  7. Raliuven

    Raliuven Chieftain

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    Not to disagree with the historical analysis, which is always fascinating, but I think the reason is probably rather simple. The AA wonders (and wonders in general but the AA in particular) are there to help in the areas the AI is weak in. Thus the higher the level of the game, the more likely the AI will get one of these helpful wonders. Also at the low levels for a beginner player they give bonuses were needed - one of the reasons for wonder addiction?

    Pyramids: Free Granaries. Helps wth AI with expansion. While a nice to have for humans, we just build selective granaries for our 4t SF and 2t WF. As the AI can't run a SF or WF that gift of free granaries has to be expansive to make up for the AI waste.
    Great Wall: Helps the AI defend against Barbarians which, as I've stated in other threads, can be a huge problem for the AI. Is it all that effective for its given purpose? Not sure about that.
    GLH: The AI won't use suicide galleys so this is their way to expand contact early across sea squares.
    Colossus: Helps the AI with gpt to help balance its poor worker/improvement planning.
    GLB: Helps to break human tech monopolies and proliferate techs.
    HG: Helps with happiness - since the AI can't use the luxury slider, this helps boost its income and productivity.
    Oracle: Same as HG. More happiness from those temples the AI is going to build anyway.
    ToA: More happiness for free and some culture expansion to help the AI with REX.
    SoZ: Give the AI some military units that may actually force the human to use a least a few tactics to overcome them.

    Of course any of these wonders in the hands of a player that knows what to do with them only assists them to put the AI's light out early. It is also why the loss of these wonders is not much missed by experienced players.
     
  8. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Chieftain

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    After rereading the story in Gen 41 you might actually be not that far off. While the Pyramids are neither mentioned nor referred to, granaries and storing up food do play a key role.
     
  9. Theov

    Theov Chieftain

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    Slave labor? What are you talking about, the pyramids were built by workers who got paid and were taken care of.
     
  10. Raliuven

    Raliuven Chieftain

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    Just like the transcontinental railroad in the U.S.? I hope that was sarcasm.
     
  11. Ataxerxes

    Ataxerxes Chieftain

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    I think he's just referring to the commonly held belief that the Pyramids was built by slaves instead of, shall we say, serfs. I don't think he meant to imply that the workers were well treated by our modern standards. Agreed, the vast majority of commoners in the ancient world were treated very badly and exploited at every turn by the leaders. Let's just say they were one step up from being slaves.
     
  12. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    This is what I had in mind...

    Spoiler :




    An original from despair.com.
     
  13. scratchthepitch

    scratchthepitch Chieftain

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    A quickie:

    Daily Life In Ancient Egypt

    http://www.ancient-egypt-online.com/daily-life-in-ancient-egypt.html

    Ancient Egyptians probably lived much the same as ancient Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians, Babylonians and Persians and all the rest of the ancient Mediterranean societies that built large cities and sprawling territories that were controlled from a central government. All were stratified societies with slaves at the bottom and the majority of people poor. Nevertheless, the average Joe in these societies didn't consider themselves powerless and exploited by their society, or alien and outside of it, any more than your typical couch potato watching a football game now does in the USA.

    Incidentally, most slavery in the ancient Mediterranean was nothing like the more modern slavery, such as conditions in the American south. It was more like being an indentured servant or in a modern military service. Conditions varied widely from place to place and at different times, but slaves had rights, and slave owners could be punished for abusing them. Slaves were not considered animals like in more modern times. One might become a slave for a period of time to pay off a debt. Freed slaves frequently rose to the top, or almost the top of their societies. It was not racially based, either. The mental disease of racism was unknown then.
     
  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    This simply doesn't hold true.
     
  15. Raliuven

    Raliuven Chieftain

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    :hmm: Why not? Like all of the wonders it is sloppy and may not do its job extremely well, but it does lead to the spread of techs amongst the AI.

    Of course like everything else, the human player can sabatoge the intent. Sell all your techs to the holder of the GLB first (or at least in the same round if not first) - but that does lock you into a predestined trading partner, which can be annoying. It also immediate drops any trade outside the loop to a 3 party tech, which spreads faster than a 2 party tech (drops the value faster).

    The downfall here is that the AI doesn't turn off research once it has the GLB. The AI would need a lot of help stategizing its tech research for this to be really effective and we already know it can't do that.
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Because 2 tribes have to know a tech for someone to pick up such a tech via The Great Library. So, The Great Library doesn't help to break human tech monopolies, since by definition a monopoly of a tech means that only one tribe has a tech. I'll add that, I believe that if you have say Chivalry, sell it to Babylon who doesn't have it, and Germany doesn't have an doesn't have The Great Library, Germany won't get Chivalry until they have their turn. I know you have to wait until you finish you turn for a tech when you have The Great Library and two other tribes know that tech.
     
  17. Raliuven

    Raliuven Chieftain

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    I see what you mean. I didn't mean to use monopoly in such a strict definiation of the term. I should have said "Helps to break human tech stranglehold and proliferate techs".

    I didn't mean to imply that having the GLB automatically entitles the holder to all newly learned techs. I do believe that the GLB helps the AI with the proliferation of techs - or at least it does this as well as the GW helps the AI fight barbarians.

    Sorry if my choice of words caused confusion or misdirection.
     
  18. Theov

    Theov Chieftain

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    If the definition of a slave is "a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant." (dictionary.com) then no, I wasn't sarcastic.

    The 3 Pyramids on the Giza Plateau were built by 3 generations of labor force of at least 30.000 workers at a time. These people had to be organized and trained and yes, they got payment or tax exemption. They had to be housed, fed and taken care of. They needed materials and tools to make the things.
    They have found graves of the builders next to the tombs and a workers' village nearby, indicating the numbers, the food and lifestyle of these people.

    I don't know who told you they were slaves, because if you're gonna use 30.000 slaves, then you need about an equal amount of guards. Then you need to house, feed and train the slaves AND the guards. ;)
    (Yeah, I know, it was a long held belief they were built by slaves, but discoveries and studies in the 90s showed they were not.)
     
  19. Raliuven

    Raliuven Chieftain

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    While this might be an interesting topic to pursue, we might be going a bit off topic. Thus for those that may not care I have collapsed my counter arguemnt.
    Spoiler :
    I don't know that the definition you provided is evidence that the term 'slave' is inaccurate. It is possible that the people that worked on the pyramids were there for a variety of reason, and some of it may have been coercion or a type of required labor [the implication being if you don't do what you are told, bad things will likely happen to you]. Or it could have just been the promise of 'if you work, we'll feed you'. If you have definitive proof of this, it would be an interesting read but your comments seem more supposition or 'glass-half-full' point of view. I don't know that the majority of the academic world agrees on any one interpretation. It may not have been much different than the feudal obligations used in Europe or, for that matter, being summoned for jury service.

    There were almost certainly artisans and skilled craftsmen & laborers that were paid and well treated.

    Your assertion that 30,000 slaves require 30,000 guards is not accurate. All you need is a threat of retribution and Egypt's geography and military strength would give that threat weight. In addition, if you overwork and undernourished the slaves it would make them far less of a threat. Add to this the limitation of freedom of speech and assembly and you will limit any uprising to a segment of the work force rather than the whole where they can be defeated/handled/intimidated in detail. An example of this is the South during the civil war where there were nearly 4 million slaves but they could muster no more than an estimated 2 million men in military man power (and likely only half this number and never had but a fraction of this number in service at any given time). I don't think the confederate army topped 200,000 at any given time. That would be a 20 to 1 ratio at most. Thus 30,000 workers would require a possible muster of 1500 fighting men at most.

    Of course the estimate of 30,000 workers may also not be entirely accurate and thus require only a small local garrison for pacification, but that's a different topic and probably irrelevant to the real issue as I agree that the term ‘slave’ in this sense means something different than most modern concepts.

    To bring this back on topic, however, perhaps the reference to granaries is a tip of the hat to the massive bread factories that were needed to feed the labor force. Regardless of why there were there, they were certainly fed and feeding 30,000 people a day is a feat all unto itself. Certainly worth a 60 shield granary in every city. :D
     
  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    The wikipedia on granary says this: "The ancient Egyptians made a practice of preserving grain in years of plenty against years of scarcity. The climate of Egypt being very dry, grain could be stored in pits for a long time without sensible loss of quality."
     

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