1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

WHy have walls and Frig/SOL if they serve no purpose?

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - General Discussions' started by Becephalus, Sep 29, 2008.

  1. Becephalus

    Becephalus King

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    725
    Can anyone answer this question for me, I don't mean to be facetious, I am actually serious.

    I cannot imagine any situation where you would ever want to build some?

    Were they perhaps included for some sandbox mode where you war with the other colonies instead of having them all suicide themselves on the AI?

    Speaking of which does the AI ever successfully rebel?

    Great game, bu they really seemed not to have played it too much with an eye towards overall game design. Its kind of a sloppy mess in terms of having a bunch of useless features.

    I think this is why a bunch fo new people are getting frustrated, they see things like Dry dock and forts and think oh, those sound nice, those should help me, but really they are just wasting resources.

    In my first game on Conquistador I struggled mightily to build up 10 frigates and a couple SoL to fight the RN. Because you know that one MoW they sunk was really worth it...
     
  2. Toni X

    Toni X Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4
    Aren't you jumping to conclusions here?

    I mean, frigates, they're great if you go to war with another european colony. Plus, you can bombard with them. You can execute a lightning attack by bombarding with frigate(s) and attacking with dragoons. Earlier, a privateer was harassing my shipping, but I couldn't quite afford a ship of the line, so I went with a frigate and it was enough to solve the problem.

    Granted, walls for coastal colonies are quite useless (especially in war for independence), but inland colonies that have walls do have their uses. In my last game, some royal troops were able to push inland, but were promptly stopped by the fortress I had against them. The fortification bought me time to bring reinforcements to the colony.

    Yes, the AI rebels. I lost my first game to Washington rebeling before me. Oh, and the dutch rebeled shortly after, but Washing beat them as well.

    It's lacking in game features the original Col had, but there's still hope some of them will be added to the game, but it's unlikely IMO. Like the fountain of youth and other special discoveries, military units not turning into continental troops etc.

    Well, I was able to sink one man 'o war withouth losing any of my navy. One of my coastal fortresses damaged it enough so I could get 60% or so attack odds with my inexperienced SoLs. Actually, I did sink two, I parked one of my SoLs in a coastal square for the +10% defense and it won, the SoL had a vet 1 upgrade though.
     
  3. niidel

    niidel Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Turku, Finland
    I can't see why anyone would train Frigates. Except, maybe to combat the other Europeans' privateers - which don't exist, for the most part (Even though I've seen them, really, I have!).

    After that, it goes like this:

    Man-o-Wars get +50% versus Frigates
    Man-o-Wars get no bonuses versus Ships of the Line

    Frigates get no bonus versus Man-o-Wars
    Ships of the Line get no bonus versus Man-o-Wars

    One of the strategies to kill the king's forces is to sink all their ships. Of course, you need a massive navy of SoLs to do that (since it takes 2 - 3 SoLs to sink a single MoW and more to face a stack of MoWs) so you need to plan ahead and build your whole strategy based on this tactic. Someone on these forums put it nicely, "it's a do or die -strategy".

    But hey, at least I like to build Drydocks in my coastal cities, the +2 food from water tiles is really nice.
     
  4. Fabien

    Fabien Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Switzerland
    I wanted to ask the same thing yesterday, but I forgot. In none of my games the AI managed to defeat the King, they produce liberty bells from the beginning and even manage to get their rebel rating quite high, but the AI seems to have no chance whatsoever at defeating the King. I played all my games on conquistador and I'm not sure the AI faces the same problems as the Human (the REF triggered by an AI seems to be much much smaller, but I was never able to see all of them), but they never even managed to survive, they just get raped by sitting in their settlements all the time.

    Also, in two of my games, Simon managed to get himself killed, but I could still chat with him, and he even asked me to join the war against Spain. Is that possible or a Bug? Can I fight the other Kings? I know that it serves no puropse at all.

    Also, I wonder how this could work out in MP.

    Also, walls in inland colonies are underrated. If you manage to destroy enough of their artillery, they'll actually start to suicide soldiers at horrible odds, like in civ. So no siege equals heavy losses, so high that you can actually stop the REF by defending.
     
  5. The_Dwarf

    The_Dwarf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    Messages:
    89
    Considering walls, for inland villages on hills I see definately great use for it.
     
  6. Beengalas

    Beengalas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    71
    The AI is useless in this game. After 200 turns on epic level my most feared opponent last game had around 5 soldiers, on conquistador level... Another game, the AI started his WoI with 3 soldiers, he got smashed like a bug under an elephant.

    The AI cannot be completely killed, which is quite boring. I killed one of the English dude once, took all his cities, yet he kept coming back by sending a caravel past my capital, which I was still in war with him I killed it. Just for another to come five turns later. Since there are no war weariness I just kept being in war with him and continued to kill that caravel for around 7-8 times until it stopped or took another route. This game on the AI part is truly so stupid.
     
  7. fmiracle

    fmiracle Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    117
    I suppose Kings Man-o-Wars must be lowered in strength. Or probably mixed with transport ships.

    It will both increase value of your SoL and help coastal fortresses live longer.

    Also I see no reason for SoL/MoW having bonus againist frigates - they will sink them easily even without such a bonus.
     
  8. Beengalas

    Beengalas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    71
    Man-o-Wars are fine, they where the top edge of the line. But the kings army shouldn't consist of only these. They where at that time the most fearful ship, but they where, IIRC, very few to the number. In my last game, the king had 44 of these, god damn, I don't think the entire world at that time had so many Man-o-Wars. Make REF have a mixed kind of ships and use galleon to transport most of their soldiers.
     
  9. Beengalas

    Beengalas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    71
    Some data from wikipedia.

    Man of wars had three decks with cannons, there are no numbers how many where in commission but I will compare it to ship of the line. in 1794 England had 14 ship of the line in commission that had three decks of cannon (totally 93) but these where in service all over the world. So, getting anything above 10 Man of wars seems pretty much against the historic, but around 40-50 ships shouldn't be to much, if they are a mix of all the war ships. And Man of wars shouldn't have bonus vs frigate, since frigate is developed after man of wars (as a smaller version of just man of wars).
     
  10. de Tocqueville

    de Tocqueville Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    5
    Could be great contend for an Addon...
     
  11. Beginner

    Beginner Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2006
    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    Bergen, Norway
    I've played about three games by now all on the pioneer difficulty(yes, I know :rolleyes: ), and I've never seen ANY of the AI players even attempting to revolt. I think it's more fun to go for as much expansion as possible and a time victory, than to go for WoI anyway.

    I've experienced the same as you do with Simon. What's the point if they just keep coming back? Sometimes they keep most of their points, sometimes they lose all their points, but still come back with x amounts of caravels, sometimes they never come back and sometimes they're completely vanquished(like in Civ 4).
     
  12. TFVanguard

    TFVanguard Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    113
    I've seen the AI colonies revolt more than once, but they ALWAYS get squashed hard by their own kings. I haven't seen a successful AI WoI yet.
     
  13. player1 fanatic

    player1 fanatic Fanatic

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,639
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Walls are great when defending against natives, especially if they have guns. Plus, natives have no cannons to counter them. :D

    Sometimes, just having stockage could be life saver againt natives, especially for remote colonist that are far away from your main forces.
     
  14. cephalo

    cephalo Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,058
    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    On conquistador difficulty I have found that I need frigates to get rid of the privateers. I see them alot. The SoL is mainly for wars against other colonies, but the AI seems to realize that neither they or we have any time for such nonsense.
     
  15. ColPaladin

    ColPaladin Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    64
    On my second game, I was not being nice to the Indians. I would not pay them for their land, and kept expanding, and then they attacked, and wiped me out in 3 turns. So I reloaded the game from about 25 turns before, and build "walls"; that's all, upgraded some to Forts; the Indians not only did not attack, but they started to give me goods like crazy (but they had a VERY angry face). Those walls make a huge difference to the AI (and it says so in the tips too).
     
  16. mboza

    mboza Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    293
    Fortresses can be useful, as it still takes the AI a good couple of rounds to reduce their bonus to zero. Ideally they would let you fight back against the bombarding MoW, to the point where a counter by SoL were possible.
     
  17. warroom

    warroom Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    134
    If only life could be relaoded. that is the great thing about a game... reload and try the choose your own adventure with some different decisions.
     
  18. offworld

    offworld Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2002
    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    This might be a good idea: MoW have a chance to get damaged if they bombard fortresses with cannons in them. This would give the player an opportunity to engage the damaged MoW at sea with SoLs AND it would make coastal fortresses useful.

    It's also realistic I guess, these kinds of fortresses were there to stop a naval enemy bombarding the town with impudence.
     
  19. GodBen

    GodBen Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    Ireland. Did you not work that out?
    It was in Col 1, so I don't know why they took it out. Your ships are completely outclassed by the MoW, so they decided to make it even harder by taking away a logical feature?

    I don't understand the mindset of the people who made this game. Building a colony on a faraway continent should be rewarding, like it was in the original. You are not meant to be punished for being successful, like you are in this game. There's a carrot and a stick, and this game is mostly stick.
     
  20. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    2,001
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buenos Aires
    Promotions aside, Ships of the Line are equal to Man-o-Wars due to the +50% combat bonus (twice as much if playing as Bolívar) provided by 100% global rebel sentiment. It's not easy to achieve, but it shortens the gap the more you work on it.
     

Share This Page