Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by andreasb, Jun 2, 2009.
Yep, straight to the titular question, the answer is because now is the time you learn to stop reading those guides. At least half of those "professional" guides and reviews haven't a clue what they talk about most of the time. You've found this site. So at least for Civ games, we're the only guides you'll ever need
I think the problem is that, as 'professionals,' they wind up running into the "quantity at the cost of quality" issue. And it doesn't really pay off that well.
Why search for a silly explanation when it is obvious that he is a S.S. (stupid sh*it).
Pure hatred is the answer here!
It is possible to win the game without ever using Slavery.
Your reply is priceless
Reading through his leader analysis made me laugh. For example
HE GOES...It's good to see our 16th president back in the game... he was the default leader for all Civilization games prior to IV, but was suspiciously absent until this expansion pack. Lincoln's perks don't come noticeably into play until the late game, but his Philosophical traitwhich doubles the rate of Great Person creationmeans you can hit your first Golden Age fairly quickly. Philosophical also gets those Universities up and running quickly, giving America a poignant research advantage. With Lincoln at the helm, the American player should be the technological leader as the game reaches its end, excellent if you're playing for a Space Victory.
As Lincoln, especially on Noble, you should have a tech lead by the middle ages if you know a little of what you're doing and get a good start. Those extra specialists are dead handy for bulbing techs, even later in the game. The charismatic trait will help you manage and develop the kind of populations you need in order to boost gp rate with specialists (without necessarily bee lining to monarchy and HR). You may want to run as a caste system and mercantilism if you can run as a republic at the same time or no trade. If there are no military threats, run as a pacifist state and cut back on troops (delete those obsolete troops you wouldn't bother upgrading anyway). Otherwise it's organised religion (you don't get any manufactuiring bonuses for much so this is your weakness)
HE SAYS (of Roosevelt for clarity) The biggest downfall of most players in Civilization comes when they expand too fast, before the civilization's government can keep up. Roosevelt will more or less cancel all the downsides of quick expansion (most notably the cost), allowing the Americans to be an offensive military civilization with him at the helm.
Roosevelt has one of the best combination of traits you will see in the game. Aside from building Forges, Factories, lighthouses and courthouses more quickly, he can build all wonders 50% quicker. In short, nobody does manufacturing like Roosevelt. And the best thing is, cheaper civics mean you can build a strong army and a strong infrastructure without having to resort to slavery or constant civic changes. Build the AP and no-one will keep up in terms of manufacturing. The incredible manufacturing power and cheaper civic cost makes Roosevelt one of the most flexible in terms of tactics that can be adopted. On noble, it should be hard to loose as this guy.
HE SAYS (of washington) Not quite to Roosevelt's level in expansive abilities, Washington can still lead America to gain incredible amounts of land early on. Under his command, the military will be a little better off, and cities can be pushed just a little harder. Washington's advantages will be more apparent in the late phases of the game, while Roosevelt's will be more apparent earlier.
Washington is a difficult civ to play as, and requires a different method of play that only really works on pangea type maps. Rather than relying on GP or ridiculous manufacturing levels, play a trade tactic combined with active use of the whip. Build the great lighthouse as soon as you are able to (b-line for it. make sure you get it). After that, get compass as quickly as possible, and start looking at getting engineering. Make sure you get open borders with your neighbours.
The tactic is simple. Gt lighthouse gives you extra trade routes. Harbour boosts this by 50%. Castles give you extra trade route. you can have each coastal city giving you five trade routes, each one boosted by 50% by a harbor (which you can build quickly because of your traits). In short, your GNP will be double your rivals if you get this right, even if they found a religion.
Use slavery and the whip to build granaries and use a dedicated slave economy (controlling city size through whipping and micromanaging to make the most of the production you gain from it). Larger cities provide greater trade but can be difficult to manage with poor production (so, whip to build troops and cheap improvements to keep people under control).
And REX. Simply building a coastal city with a harbour in it can pay for itself AND boost your tech rate on Noble. Spread overseas and it becomes stupid. Even if your tech slider is set at 50% 'cos you forgot to build courthouses, your tech rate will piss on your rivals well into the industrial age. Note, the charismatic trait ensures stronger navies at a production level, suiting this style of play.
UU and UB (this guy doesn't seem to talk about these. Hmmm).
The Americans are financial and militaristic powerhouses. The navy seal will heal as it moves, and if built from a specialist military city with Lincoln or Washington can enjoy level five promotions (e.g combat 1, 2, 3 & 4 = 40% stronger= combat level of 34 give or take. Almost on a level with Mech infs then). They excel on sea based maps and sea based invations. The Mall is almost overpowered, particularly if you build any of the key cultural wonders of the industrial and modern age (broadway, Rock and Roll, Hollywood). Even if you don't get them, +20% commerce is very handy. The mall doesn't quite give the insane capacity for endless war the Byzantine hippodrome will, but can very handy for keeping a large population under control.
See. I could be a professional reviewer. And write walkthoughs for this stuff. But I'd still be crap compared to some of the guys who play this.
I also wince in bewilderment at his analysis on the final page.
OK, true enough. Mucking up a war and not checking your opponent's expansion are serious problems to be sure, but does that mean he would have won if he had realized those things? What about all the other serious problems he made? He founded his second city around 1500BC and didn't get around to his fourth until just shortly before the figurative turn of the freaking common era. As best as I can tell, he had no economy whatsoever. How he was able to even keep up with technology with his neighbors is completely beyond me. And a stele was the second thing he built in his capital. Really? Really? I'm even able to forgive his religion obsession because it was at least part of a larger strategy of diplomatic engineering (not that I would advise people to divert their resources so greatly to try and found so many religions), but what was building a stele in his capital supposed to accomplish?
I still get hung up on that screenshot on page 6. How does one get so far along in the game and get such an underdeveloped empire?
I am fluent in idiot (im a teacher, i have to be) and this guy is beyond idiot
To those people that claim you should never read these guides: these guides rule and are massive fun! If you are a starting player and believe this guy, it will take you 1-3 games to figure out he was wrong anyway, so no real harm there i think. You need a brain to play civ, one way or the other.
The OP found his way here, into the light!
more will follow.
Now im off to finish reading this gem
You realize that if your students ever figure out who you are, they're never going to let you get away with that...
my nickname should stir up some trouble in itself i guess. I dont mind
So far I've kept my borders seperating my professional time and my leisure time in check and I will continue to do that.
besides, some of my students take pride in their idiot status it seems heh.
"Conversely, you can wage war by destroying the connecting road. In the early days, destroy the road on Iron, and the entire country cannot produce Swordsmen, perhaps the most powerful unit in the early turns. That may not guarantee victory, but it will be a major distraction and weaken the enemy's military effort."
Slavery has higher upkeep afaik so there is a reason to not switch until you can actually whip. Also you may encounter unfavorable events so that is another one not to switch.
And whatever may be of that, the guy said that slavery was only good because it gave one more option than tribalism did. He did not seem like he wanted to use slavery. My comment was directed at him apparently willing to sacrifice a turn for a civic he did not plan to use. I think we can all agree that that is a very stupid move.
You missed the part where I said: "and not playing the BtS expansion".
Of course, it doesn't take much to get to the point where you can whip, and if you need infrastructure built and suffer from low happy/healthy caps, you might as well put those extra population points to good use...
I used to struggle using slavery and the whip until I realised there are certain things you do and don't do in order to make the best use of it, so I can understand why inexperienced players don't like it.
For you noobies out there:
Adopt hereditry rule. Use troops to combat unhappiness then whip temple/theatre etc.
Use it to whip cheaper buildings to combat poor health.
Do make sure you've got a granary in any city you're going to whip in.
Use when you have got a high population.
Leave a good gap between whips to build you're population back up and ensure happiness doesn't become a problem.
Use the overflow to build troops quicker. (the overflow is handy, and is the main reason for whipping)
Whip on the second or third turn of production (better use of population).
Whip temples and monastries if the AP has been built for that religion.
Set a minimum population where you won't whip if it takes your population below that.
Try to use the whip alone to deal with unhappiness. That's when whipping will really destroy your economy.
Use the whip to get expensive buildings (unless they're already 3/4 built) or wonders (penalises you for doing this so I've read)
whip settlers and workers (the overflow won't be as good so I've read).
Whip unless you've got a granary unless you're going to whip a granary.
Use slavery if you're trying to run a specialist economy. It's counterproductive as SE requires larger populations to be effective.
Run as a slavery unless you're going to whip. (this seems to be when random events are most likely to punish you). Slavery is an expensive civic compared with tribalism and serfdom.
Whip in a city that doesn't have the population to support it, or lacks the food production to allow it.
Keep trying to whip when you hit the rennaisance. (things are just too expensive by this point to make it worth it)
Intelligent use of the whip will control your population and (and thus civic cost) while providing a boost to your production and solving many of your health issues and actually can require little in the way of micromanaging. You can use it to get 5 (easy) maybe 9 (optimistic) cheap buildings (Granary, temple, monastry, harbour, walls, courthouse etc depending on your civ) in a 50 turn timeslot and keep churning out troops at the same time. I personally don't like to use it to produce troops, but if you've got the population, are running as HR and the new units are comparatively advanced then it can make sense and is more flexible than drafting even though it produces better trained troops.
You do need to get that population back up quickly (to whip again and make effective use of city tiles). granaries are the only way of doing this.
You do need to minimise the unhappiness it causes with hr or luxuries.
You do need to know when to do it. Trying it within the first 50 turns of the game when your cities aren't even above 4 population and you'll struggle to regrow your cities is pointless.
Huh? Whipping is more efficient at smaller size because you grow back quicker, and each pop is worth same number of hammers regardless of how much food was needed for each pop point...
Whip when you are working suboptimal tiles.
Most SEs run Caste System, and you can't run CS and Slavery at the same time.
In the play-through, I personally get a chuckle out of the part where he says the Creative trait is useless on Archipelago maps.
Not having to worry about building a culture building, especially on water-heavy maps like Archipelago, is a great bonus.
The reason he gives: you wouldn't be able to culture-flip cities. Does he honestly think you should try to flip enemy cities with the Creative trait alone?
You're assuming they'd actually be able to read it, and then put together a viable counter-argument or complaint . It's a byproduct of lowering standards too much.
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