Why I Believe In Free Speech inc Nazis

[Cloud_Strife]

No - but it could be argued that it has been, at least partially, thanks to the idea of universal rights such as freedom of speech and conscience that has lead to wider societal acceptance of LGBTQ rights. Therefore, undermining those rights, even with the intention of protecting the LGBTQ community, might not be in your best interests long-term. Because they protect you as well.

So why was that not the case in the 50s? Or the 60s? Or the 70s? Or the 80s? Or the 90s? Or the 00s? I think people like you forget how maligned the transcommunity has been, it's only the last couple of years that views are starting to actually soften and change and that has more to do with people being open about it and even then there's still a large, well funded right-wing pushback against it, in the forms of terfs and other bigots.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ah yes, clearly i should be happy that i live in a country where there is a sizeable part of society that is more than willing to actively work against my interests, label and view me as an abomination and are okay with espousing views that lead to transpeople being assaulted, harrassed and killed.

How lucky i am. Give me a break @Patine and @Zardnaar you're so far removed from the reality that i have to deal with on a daily basis that you are saying i am lucky to at least not be openly killed, what sort of messed up, inhumane, dehumanizing logic is this? I should be glad that i'm effectively a second or third class citizen and not an untouchable?

Nevermind that we've yet to hear back from SCOTUS about whether you can discriminate against transpeople, denying them jobs and such, which undoubtedly will happen because moderates like yourself have no problems enabling conservatives. I can already be dismissed for my sexuality, let alone gender and there are people actively working towards making that a reality, I can already be discriminated in terms of healthcare and you're telling me i should be glad? Absolute bullcrap.

Bullcrap and brain worms.

What we're saying is you lack perspective and think the world revolves around you.

I did some googling USA was listed at 18 for lbqt countries.

There's 180 countries in the world.
There's countries like Yemen, Sudan, Saudi Arabia etc.

Top ten places are generally Europe, Canada NZ.

Already said I vote for NZ labour party. If I was American I'll vote for anyone from Biden to Mayor Pete, to Beto, Sanders or Warren. A few lefties here can't commit to that.

I added concrete pills to my cornflakes when I was 13 to harden up. I lie we couldn't afford cornflakes (no I'm not joking).

Went to rough high school, bought own clothes aged 15, expelled age 16 for a variety of misdemeanors. Got job,bought house went to uni later. Crap school, crap teenage years. Left home aged 17/18. Met women better than I deserve.

If you look at yourself as a victim it's self fulfilling. Life sucks sometimes it happens.

 

[Zardnaar]

So why was that not the case in the 50s? Or the 60s? Or the 70s? Or the 80s? Or the 90s? Or the 00s? I think people like you forget how maligned the transcommunity has been, it's only the last couple of years that views are starting to actually soften and change and that has more to do with people being open about it and even then there's still a large, well funded right-wing pushback against it, in the forms of terfs and other bigots.

Not gonna lie takes time.

NZ about 10-20 years ahead of the USA. Liberal Europe's years ahead of us.

Looks like the alt right has peaked,coming out into the open revealed how repulsive they are.

If Trump wins in 2020 get your ass over to NZ there's a variety of ways to get you in. Or Canada (I assume you're American lmk if you're not).

 

[Cloud_Strife]

How exactly do i lack perspective when i've been on the recieving end of violence and discrimination?

You sound detached from reality, from my perspective and you're more than willing to invalidate my experiences as a transperson. You come kramering in with your hot takes that don't take into account what i and other transpeople have faced, do i need to point out the level of suicidality and self harm in our community? The level of abuse? I suspect that even if i do, you'll still come here with your disengenuous platitudes about how i should be so lucky, from my experiences in a small, conservative town, I wasn't lucky and i doubt it was any better when i was growing up for transpeople in cities either.

I never chose to be a "victim", society decided that and it's absolute bullcrap to put that label on me when my entire life has been a reaction to what strangers, friends, family, colleagues etc, have done to me.

Don't ever lecture me on my life again or how i don't have perspective, when you've never had to deal with people attacking you because you are trans, baying for your blood. I'm the one left with the physical, emotional and mental scars, that are all so plain to see, I don't need your opinion about how things are great when my very life and experience stands in stark contrast to your claims.

 

[Gorbles]

What we're saying is you lack perspective and think the world revolves around you.

I did some googling USA was listed at 18 for lbqt countries.

There's 180 countries in the world.
There's countries like Yemen, Sudan, Saudi Arabia etc.

Top ten places are generally Europe, Canada NZ.

Already said I vote for NZ labour party. If I was American I'll vote for anyone from Biden to Mayor Pete, to Beto, Sanders or Warren. A few lefties here can't commit to that.

I added concrete pills to my cornflakes when I was 13 to harden up. I lie we couldn't afford cornflakes (no I'm not joking).

Went to rough high school, bought own clothes aged 15, expelled age 16 for a variety of misdemeanors. Got job,bought house went to uni later. Crap school, crap teenage years. Left home aged 17/18. Met women better than I deserve.

If you look at yourself as a victim it's self fulfilling. Life sucks sometimes it happens.

Bit rich saying someone else lacks perspective when you completely fail to understand that some people are discriminated against. It's not "looking at themselves like a victim". You lack perspective, if that's what you think is going on here.

I mean, Cloud's already said this (repeatedly, in endless threads, in the relatively short time I've been in OT), but I figure repeating it can't hurt.

It's cool that you weren't discriminated against. That's your life though, and not anyone elses'. It's well-past time you recognised that.

 

[Yeekim]

So why was that not the case in the 50s? Or the 60s? Or the 70s? Or the 80s? Or the 90s? Or the 00s? I think people like you forget how maligned the transcommunity has been, it's only the last couple of years that views are starting to actually soften and change and that has more to do with people being open about it and even then there's still a large, well funded right-wing pushback against it, in the forms of terfs and other bigots.

I won't pretend to know everything. Still, universal rights should be especially valuable to marginalized minorities.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I won't pretend to know everything. Still, universal rights should be especially valuable to marginalized minorities.

Go and ask African Americans if universal rights were consistantly applied to them and how well that went.

Go and ask LGBT people if Universal rights were consistantly applied to them and how well that went.

Go and ask Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Non-Christians, heck even Catholics, if Universal rights were consistantly applied to them and how well that went.

Go and ask Hispanics and Asians if Universal rights were consistantly applied to them and how well that went.

Go and ask Women if Universal rights were consistantly applied to them and how well that went.

Because i'll tell you what @Yeekim, they weren't and this isn't an opinion, this is historical fact and you know and i know that.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Bit rich saying someone else lacks perspective when you completely fail to understand that some people are discriminated against. It's not "looking at themselves like a victim". You lack perspective, if that's what you think is going on here.

I mean, Cloud's already said this (repeatedly, in endless threads, in the relatively short time I've been in OT), but I figure repeating it can't hurt.

It's cool that you weren't discriminated against. That's your life though, and not anyone elses'. It's well-past time you recognised that.

He thinks that because things are better now that i should be content, but they're not and you only have to ask minorities how 'improved" the current situation is. He thinks because he is relatively safe in his little bubble that others do no suffer the same way they did in the past. He is wrong and his attitude allows him and other people to look elsewhere whilst abuse continues. It enables him.

 

[Moriarte]

Hopefully dump the Trump works and it'll burn itself out in a few years and we'll look back and cringe and think wth

I doubt that underlying conditions that precipitate birth and spread of far right movements on all continents will magically disappear by simply swapping America’s latest CEO.

 

[Akka]

So why was that not the case in the 50s? Or the 60s? Or the 70s? Or the 80s? Or the 90s? Or the 00s?

Because it was progressive.
Pretty sure it was actually much better (or "less bad") for transpeople in the 90's than in the 50's. Just like there is still racism today, even institutional racism, but I'm pretty sure it was quite a lot worse in the 50's, which were themselves better than the 20's, which were themselves quite better than when racial slavery was actually lawful.

Not to say "it gets better so shut up", because you're fully in your right to defend your point of view especially if you're subject to inequalities (though it would help if you could also understand that not all of your perceptions are factually true for everyone and people can disagree with you without removing your humanity or wishing to see you dead), but if you're undermining the very concept that is behind the process which is actually working toward greater equality, then what you're doing is twofolds :

1) You're working against the very same idea ("basic rights") that justifies your complaints (you're justly entitled to the same basic rights offered to everyone, if you consider that others' rights could be removed then what is the moral imperative that makes your demands for equal rights just ?).

2) It's also simply counter-productive and risks blowing up in your face. If you manage to convince others that people could be killed for their ideas... what happens if those who consider your idea disgusting are ever elected to power ?

 

[Zardnaar]

How exactly do i lack perspective when i've been on the recieving end of violence and discrimination?

You sound detached from reality, from my perspective and you're more than willing to invalidate my experiences as a transperson.

I never chose to be a "victim", society decided that and it's absolute bullcrap to put that label on me when my entire life has been a reaction to what strangers, friends, family, colleagues etc, have done to me.

Don't ever lecture me on my life again or how i don't have perspective, when you've never had to deal with people attacking you because you are trans, baying for your blood.

No I've just had the crap kicked out if me for no reason.

I haven't been punched in the head since 1999. 90's angry decade.

Point is you use a lot if hyperbole. Alot of the dumb crap in the right is out if control liberal stupidity in America but the real problem is socio economic dislocation.

Same thing that fueled the Nazis in the 30's.

All the social justice causes tend to rate low about what Americans and most if the world actually care about and the left is losing elections over it because the parties have been hijacked by out of touch elites and Uber liberals who don't really have a clue of the real world.

People care about things like the economy, wages, taxes, healthcare not because they're a bunch of closet Fascists but because that's what they relate to.

Yes most people live in a bubble. The 1%ers hang around in their circles, the urban liberals don't really get the rural areas and vice versa.

This isn't just an American thing it's in any Western liberal type nation. NZ labour party is in government band still poll lower than the others because they're semi useless and they're in a better place than the UK and Aussie ones.

The internet is making things all worse because social media is cancer but people can't really relate to each other.

One side of my family is poor one side is well off. I'm living the urban liberal lifestyle with my green voting friends but get to go out to farms and work in places like ports so tend to get to met a variety of people from CEO's to ex con gang members.

That includes refugees from Jordan and Syria, immigrants from Nigeria, Somalia.

Patine I don't regard as a centrist but he has spoken to similar types of people I have. Ex iron curtain people, middle eastern people, people who survived the killing fields. Ex Afghan minister who survived the Taliban and Iranians.

So yeah your I'm a victim mentality gets repetitive. I don't imagine the USA is fun atm but that's what I mean by perspective.

Leave Jordan or die, leave Afghanistan or die, Mamouds family from Iran who liked the Shah.

You hyperbole not only is tiresome it's outright offensive.

If you think the USA is bad.....

 

[MaryKB]

I mean that women talk to other women. And when one says "well, I only want to date white guys and I said so on my profile" their friends may not have the fortitude to say "you know what, that's really not cool." So the cycle goes on, and spreads.

One thing you need to realize too, is that white men don't like white women who date men with dark skin. They view us as "damaged" or something, it's a big risk. You'd be surprised at how many dates with white men went sour really fast when I told them my last boyfriend was Indian, but from what I understand it's even worse if you date someone of African descent.

I've heard stories where if you have pictures of your dark-skinned ex-boyfriends on facebook or something, white men will completely shun you. It's disgusting, but I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of what those women are doing is motivated out of fear of being ostracized. Also, parents can really freak out when you bring home a guy with dark skin, I had a falling out with my family for about three years because of their reaction.

White men generally think of white women as their possessions, and don't like other ethnicities "touching their stuff." Of course the women end up being the ones who are blamed ...

 

[Zardnaar]

I doubt that underlying conditions that precipitate birth and spread of far right movements on all continents will magically disappear by simply swapping America’s latest CEO.

Nope it's gonna take years. Short term though RBG for example won't last forever.

 

[Yeekim]

Because i'll tell you what @Yeekim, they weren't and this isn't an opinion, this is historical fact and you know and i know that.

Obviously.
However, does that not mean you EDIT: I mean "we" should fight for their application with ever bigger consistency, rather than undermining them?

 

[Zardnaar]

One thing you need to realize too, is that white men don't like white women who date men with dark skin. They view us as "damaged" or something, it's a big risk. You'd be surprised at how many dates with white men went sour really fast when I told them my last boyfriend was Indian, but from what I understand it's even worse if you date someone of African descent.

I've heard stories where if you have pictures of your dark-skinned ex-boyfriends on facebook or something, white men will completely shun you. It's disgusting, but I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of what those women are doing is motivated out of fear of being ostracized. Also, parents can really freak out when you bring home a guy with dark skin, I had a falling out with my family for about three years because of their reaction.

White men generally think of white women as their possessions, and don't like other ethnicities "touching their stuff." Of course the women end up being the ones who are blamed ...

We agree on something. There's a variety of nasty names. I've had Indian friends here who gave complained about that. Perception is Indians treat women like crap.

I've had Indian women want to date me though because they don't like Indian men though so go figure. She was Fijian Indian though so lower caste I suppose.

If I was gay white American men would be a bit lower down on my dating list.

 

[Gorbles]

Because it was progressive.
Pretty sure it was actually much better (or "less bad") for transpeople in the 90's than in the 50's. Just like there is still racism today, even institutional racism, but I'm pretty sure it was quite a lot worse in the 50's, which were themselves better than the 20's, which were themselves quite better than when racial slavery was actually lawful.

Modern transphobia is actually a relatively new thing. There's a lot of history behind the demographic, stretching back millenia.

In 1952, Christine Jorgensen's transition brought widespread awareness to reassignment surgery. The modern fight for trans rights began with trans and gay people rising up in the 1959 Cooper Do-nuts Riot, 1966 Compton's Cafeteria Riot, and 1969 Stonewall Riots. In 1970s, Lou Sullivan began what became FTM International, while some feminists began to feud over excluding or including trans women.

Transphobia isn't the same as racism; you can't track it in the same way. You can't assume it was always worse than it is now, and that things now are better than they've historically been (nor can you for racism, but at least it's easier to track progress there).

The Nazi's destruction of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft was a severe blow to what we do know about this demographic, because so much (valid, scientific) evidence was destroyed.

 

[Zardnaar]

Modern transphobia is actually a relatively new thing. There's a lot of history behind the demographic, stretching back millenia.

Transphobia isn't the same as racism; you can't track it in the same way. You can't assume it was always worse than it is now, and that things now are better than they've historically been (nor can you for racism, but at least it's easier to track progress there).

The Nazi's destruction of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft was a severe blow to what we do know about this demographic, because so much (valid, scientific) evidence was destroyed.

There was a trans Roman Emperor, the contemporary accounts are not very flattering.

 

[Lexicus]

One thing you need to realize too, is that white men don't like white women who date men with dark skin. They view us as "damaged" or something, it's a big risk. You'd be surprised at how many dates with white men went sour really fast when I told them my last boyfriend was Indian, but from what I understand it's even worse if you date someone of African descent.

I've heard stories where if you have pictures of your dark-skinned ex-boyfriends on facebook or something, white men will completely shun you. It's disgusting, but I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of what those women are doing is motivated out of fear of being ostracized. Also, parents can really freak out when you bring home a guy with dark skin, I had a falling out with my family for about three years because of their reaction.

White men generally think of white women as their possessions, and don't like other ethnicities "touching their stuff." Of course the women end up being the ones who are blamed ...

This...was not the case where I grew up.
My school district was less than half white. Friend groups were racially diverse. Shunning white women who dated non-white men would have shrunk the dating pool to like 5 people.

edit: Just to be clear I'm not doubting or disputing anything you're saying. I am suggesting it may vary across geography.

 

[Zardnaar]

This...was not the case where I grew up.
My school district was less than half white. Friend groups were racially diverse. Shunning white women who dated non-white men would have shrunk the dating pool to like 5 people.

MaryKB hit the nail on the head IMHO with her explaination.

Doesn't apply everywhere of course but there's an undercurrent there with Americans and Aussies to a lesser extent.

I noticed it playing CoD2 one ofy friends online was African American. IDK sounded like American to me but the Americans could tell by his accent and a couple of women we gamed with made similar comments to what Mary was saying. That's 2006.

Our group seemed popular as the guts of it was Australasian so nobody hated us.

CoD4 ruined it.

 

[MaryKB]

This...was not the case where I grew up.
My school district was less than half white. Friend groups were racially diverse. Shunning white women who dated non-white men would have shrunk the dating pool to like 5 people.

edit: Just to be clear I'm not doubting or disputing anything you're saying. I am suggesting it may vary across geography.

I definitely agree that in certain areas, things will be different, where there's less of a white super-majority like at your school. I do think that as our culture becomes more diverse, this is going to be less and less of a problem.

As a white woman, I can say from my own experience (and talking to my friends, and reading online), that we want to date men with darker skin, generally we find darkness very attractive. I don't remember where, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about interracial dating statistics, that white women are the most likely to date outside our ethnicity. I've also been told by an anthropologist penpal that from an evolutionary angle, women are more likely to be attracted to men outside of our gene group (something to do with a natural instinct to seek out healthy genetics for propagation)

Our fear primarily comes from the reprisals of white men. This is a problem that I don't think is going to last forever.