Why I have stopped founding religions altogether

[JustinianIV]

Contrary to the experience of others, I have never found it difficult to found a religion on immortal or higher. In fact, when I try, I am usually one of the first. When I don't try, I am either fourth or fifth. So, to me the problem is not whether founding a religion is too difficult. No, the problem is that my religions amount to almost nothing.

I have now had over 12 games on immortal or deity, and each time I have started a religion. Usually these are very good religions with spread-boosting enhancements. EVERY TIME my religion fails to spread outside of my realm. What's worse, it often doesn't spread WITHIN my civilization. The AI inevitably gets the religious wonders and nukes you with GPs and missionaries. And if you ask them to stop, they have already converted all the other cities around you, so the pressure is crazy.

The only way to counter this in your own realm is to station Inquisitors in of your own cities, but these are costly. You end up spending a lot of your hard earned faith, just so that you can use your religion. The tail wags the dog.

Now I focus on faith without religion, and I find I'm much better off for it. Usually I end up getting a pretty cool religion from the AIs.

 

[adwcta]

Well, if you can't make 4 tailored bonuses work for you.... Not sure what to say.

Getting a religion is very different between immortal and deity. It is IMO, the biggest difference.

If you get the 5th religion, that means you have low faith, so yeah, it's going to be hard keeping it alive on deity and forget spreading it. Also, wide is much better for religion, not just because you get more faith, but mostly because you have much more low pop cities that will pick up the religion naturally. Use a missionary to get 3 pressure points, and wait 20 turns for the rest of your cities to catch up. Internal trade routes also work well.

On immortal, spreading isn't that hard with a faith pantheon. But, it's almost impossible without one. On dirty, you need at least two faith bonuses to spread your religion.

In any case, your main goal is to spread to the 3 nonreligious civs and their surrounding CSs. Otherwise, it's awful diplo, so you better pick a tiny target so they can't out prophet you. It's best to pick the most expansionist one to focus on.

There's an art to this whole thing about counting 10 tiles and knowing where the best pressure points are.

A tall civ on deity shouldn't try doing more than converting one neighbor and close CSs.

The thing to realize is that the AI converting your cities is an aggressive action. It simply won't happen if you have good diplo. I used to use inquisitors, but it's been 4 games now since the AI even attempted to convert one of my cities. So, with good diplo and enough pressure to prevent erosion (either by converting an adjacent civ, or being wide), your religion will stay alive without you having to do anything.

Also, the grand temple more than makes up for the faith lost in creating a religion, so you break even when it comes to GP buying in end game. If you pick the faith founders belief (a belief you wouldn't get without religion), it would be a net gain in faith for spreading to other civs. Or, you can just be fine having 2-3 GP in end game instead of 4-5 (trading it for game long happiness or gold). It's not for every strategy, but it's generally worth it. AI religion's random bonuses are inapplicable half the time.

I will stop trying to get a religion if my close neighbor starts piety, or if I don't have an available faith bonus. But, besides that, I always go for it, and haven't had much trouble keeping it alive and often even spreading it to a neighboring civ or two.

 

[beetle]

I like the CS quests to convert them, so founding is important to me just for that. I agree that spreading your religion outside your empire is usually a lost cause. I have been pretty successful keeping my religion within my four-city core, usually without needing a single inquisitor, and despite of lots of missionary spam. You didn’t actually ask, but here’s the tips I use and have learned from this forum:

1. Don’t found your religion in your capital.
2. Buy a missionary before enhancing, convert two of your cities.
3. Keep the three cities you settle all within 10 tiles of each other. If two cities are 11 tiles (or more) from each other, you loose half of your internal religious pressure!

 

[El Caballerion]

The ONLY way I have found to spread undominated on Diety, is to be on a small continent with about 3 others CIVS that have no religion. lol

 

[JustinianIV]

Yeah, I really hope that it's because I have been doing something wrong.

I almost always play a standard pangaea with four cities, so perhaps that has something to do with it.

I have always waited until I have enhanced twice before spreading actively, so perhaps that's the problem. I've also never considered not founding my religion in my capital.

 

[JustinianIV]

Well, if you can't make 4 tailored bonuses work for you.... Not sure what to say.

Getting a religion is very different between immortal and deity. It is IMO, the biggest difference.

If you get the 5th religion, that means you have low faith, so yeah, it's going to be hard keeping it alive on deity and forget spreading it. Also, wide is much better for religion, not just because you get more faith, but mostly because you have much more low pop cities that will pick up the religion naturally. Use a missionary to get 3 pressure points, and wait 20 turns for the rest of your cities to catch up. Internal trade routes also work well.

On immortal, spreading isn't that hard with a faith pantheon. But, it's almost impossible without one. On dirty, you need at least two faith bonuses to spread your religion.

In any case, your main goal is to spread to the 3 nonreligious civs and their surrounding CSs. Otherwise, it's awful diplo, so you better pick a tiny target so they can't out prophet you. It's best to pick the most expansionist one to focus on.

There's an art to this whole thing about counting 10 tiles and knowing where the best pressure points are.

A tall civ on deity shouldn't try doing more than converting one neighbor and close CSs.

The thing to realize is that the AI converting your cities is an aggressive action. It simply won't happen if you have good diplo. I used to use inquisitors, but it's been 4 games now since the AI even attempted to convert one of my cities. So, with good diplo and enough pressure to prevent erosion (either by converting an adjacent civ, or being wide), your religion will stay alive without you having to do anything.

Also, the grand temple more than makes up for the faith lost in creating a religion, so you break even when it comes to GP buying in end game. If you pick the faith founders belief (a belief you wouldn't get without religion), it would be a net gain in faith for spreading to other civs. Or, you can just be fine having 2-3 GP in end game instead of 4-5 (trading it for game long happiness or gold). It's not for every strategy, but it's generally worth it. AI religion's random bonuses are inapplicable half the time.

I will stop trying to get a religion if my close neighbor starts piety, or if I don't have an available faith bonus. But, besides that, I always go for it, and haven't had much trouble keeping it alive and often even spreading it to a neighboring civ or two.

From my play-throughs, this hasn't been the case. I almost always have good relations when I play on deity, and even my most long-term friends force their beliefs on me. It still really irks me that you can't warn them not to spread before they spread... and they will always try to spread. Still, most of my problem is simply from pressure-spreads.

 

[adwcta]

From my play-throughs, this hasn't been the case. I almost always have good relations when I play on deity, and even my most long-term friends force their beliefs on me. It still really irks me that you can't warn them not to spread before they spread... and they will always try to spread. Still, most of my problem is simply from pressure-spreads.

Then they're not really your friends, are they? On Deity, there's a higher level of diplo. needed. And other targets. AI doesn't prophet spam until mid game, so you have a while to build up a ton of good diplo, and to incite bad diplo between the other civs.

4 civs is a bad number for religious spread, since there is only 1 target left without religion to convert. How are you founding the 5th religion I a 4 man game? I play standard 8 civs.

 

[Zaimejs]

Generally, what happens with me is that I get the religion, spread it. Then one or two AIs go on this blitz of missionaries and GPs. But after the initial blitz, if my religion survives, their output slows down, so with a couple more GPs I can take back most of what I lost in the blitz.

Best thing is to defend cities with strategic units instead of having to make inquistors for each one. But still, I feel your pain. I just can't help going for religion, especially if I have a starting spot that just screams "Desert Lore!"

 

[Sagax]

I just try to maintain religion within my borders, because trying to spread it without good faith output is futile. The only case when I consider spreading it is if I got Stonehenge and have a non-religious ICS civ in the vicinity - those spammed cities are easy to convert and can let you snowball with pressure.

 

[misterchief]

I played my first game on Immortal yesterday. I chose to avoid trying to get a pantheon/religion altogether, and only built 2 shrines and 1 temple (and they were built late). My faith output was low; it was primarily being generated from one or two CS allies. I won a science victory on turn 326. I obviously wasn't able to ever buy much with faith; only 4 or 5 religious buildings (pagodas or cathedrals from follower beliefs) and one great engineer. Nevertheless, I still won very comfortably.

I'm happy simply taking an AI's religion and not having to spend resources on shrines/temples/wonders/missionaries/Piety/etc. Not to mention that it avoids one huge diplomatic headache. I'll also help the AI's religion that I've taken become the world religion in the WC. Overall I feel like I can still get a fair amount of religious benefits, basically without having to put any effort at all into faith/religion.

I'd only normally go for a religion if I get a faith ruin early on, if I'm a religious civ, if I'm going wide, or if I'm playing below Emperor.

For the record, I'm not saying my play style and strategy is optimal or should be followed; even though I've won on Immortal, I know I have a TON to learn about this game.

 

[danaphanous]

I just try to maintain religion within my borders, because trying to spread it without good faith output is futile. The only case when I consider spreading it is if I got Stonehenge and have a non-religious ICS civ in the vicinity - those spammed cities are easy to convert and can let you snowball with pressure.

ditto. I always go for stonehenge, if I get it then I'm assured at least equal-footing in the religious competition. The earlier you nab your religion the stronger the foothold and the less maintenance you have to do. I usually found with the first prophet. Get Hagia Sophia before the 2nd and enhance. Then use my acculated faith for 2 missionaries before anything else. If you don't your religion is painfully slow getting off the ground. The more cities nearby that have your religion the more pressure. So you get 6 on all nearby cities from the capital. Use a missionary to fully convert 2 more in the core and all nearby cities now get 6+6+6 or 18 pressure and your religion spreads 3 times faster. So do this as soon as possible. My second missionary (or prophet if I get that first) is usually sent to get a foothold in neutral civs nearby. It increases relations with them and then they start spreading it. If your religion has a building AI's tend to like it I've found and it makes them less likely to attack you.

I have never had trouble maintaining a strong religion but I also always grab either itinerant preachers or (my favorite) or religious texts for extra spread rate. Sure you pass up on other more direct bonuses but it goes through the continent like crazy and means your religion will be pretty self-sustaining later with more faith to divert to actual bonuses like buildings, GP, etc. To get a combination effect I usually grab tithes or the culture bonus ones to put all that population to good use. You get these stats before the AI (and only one religion can have a particular characteristic which is why being the first is important) the AI will be on the defensive instead. they rarely send great prophets my way they're so busy dealing with my religion on the home front. I also tend to wipe out the religions that are founded right next to me unless it's a very small civ who can't exert enough pressure to compete (aka 1-3 cities)

 

[Asklepios]

I like the CS quests to convert them, so founding is important to me just for that. I agree that spreading your religion outside your empire is usually a lost cause. I have been pretty successful keeping my religion within my four-city core, usually without needing a single inquisitor, and despite of lots of missionary spam. You didn’t actually ask, but here’s the tips I use and have learned from this forum:

1. Don’t found your religion in your capital.
2. Buy a missionary before enhancing, convert two of your cities.
3. Keep the three cities you settle all within 10 tiles of each other. If two cities are 11 tiles (or more) from each other, you loose half of your internal religious pressure!

Hmm, I don't think I do ANY of these things at the moment. Good tips.

I can see the logic in point 3 certainly.

Point 2, I'm wondering if its counterproductive. If I get a Great Prophet as my first Faith spend after getting a religion, am I not increasing the Faith count for all players to get a religion? I would have thought that then results in another nation getting religion later, and me having more time to spread my religion.
My own approach (I don't play Deity much, I admit, and am pretty poor at religion in Immortal) is to enhance first and foremost, get the Itinerant Preachers, and then buy Missionaries asap to spread my religion around 30 hexes distant from my capital (in a city state by preference) and then keep buying missionaries until every city in the world has a religion, whether its mine or not. I do this to try and get as much money out of Tithe as possible, by having as many cities in the world pressured by my religion as quickly as possible. I've sometimes also played around (when really rolling in Faith) to just let Great Prophets spawn, jus to push up their base cost, and use them for conversions instead, targeting the biggest cities I can.
I'm not saying this approach is right: rather its what I've always done, probably wrongly. Whats the rationale behind the early spread of religion to your own cities?

As for point 1: not founding religion in your capital... why? I'm sure there's a good reason, but I can't work it out. The capital seems a great place for religion, given thats where my Tourism is going to be coming from, and given that World Religion should eventually pass.

 

[beetle]

Point 2, I'm wondering if its counterproductive.

I think it is certainly the most debatable of the three. From Browd’s excellent guide:

One common technique to get your religion’s spread started early is to buy a Missionary in your holy city before enhancing your religion, and use the Missionary to spread your religion to two nearby cities. This will delay enhancement of your religion (as you re-accumulate faith to the 300 level), but may trigger a beneficial cascade of religion adoptions by surrounding cities as a result of religious pressure.

I think that is written as an aggressive move, but I find it works defensively, especially if I have a pantheon that benefits multiple cities (and I have cities that did not pick up the pantheon). In my last few games, before enhancing, I have also burned faith on the building I optioned as a follower belief. That feels like it is working out really well, so I plan to keep doing that.

If I get a Great Prophet as my first Faith spend after getting a religion, am I not increasing the Faith count for all players to get a religion? I would have thought that then results in another nation getting religion later, and me having more time to spread my religion.

The Faith count increment is for number of religions founded, not number of GP generated game-wide. That is, delaying your second GP does not make it easier on your rivals to found a religion. It is a gamble because it could mean losing out on your preferred enhancer belief.

As for point 1: not founding religion in your capital... why? I'm sure there's a good reason, but I can't work it out. The capital seems a great place for religion, given thats where my Tourism is going to be coming from, and given that World Religion should eventually pass.

Point 1 is strictly for the majority of difficult games where religion is a nice ancillary to your play, not your key path to victory! The reason is that the AI loves to Prophet bomb the founding cities of competing religions. With an embassy, if your founding city is your capital, the AI knows exactly where to go!

If you follow point 3, the only down side is having to build the Grand Temple in a city that is probably not the most productive. If you are really lucky though, your 2nd or 3rd city is on a Natural Wonder with a faith bonus, so there is synergy with that.

Try point 1 in a game where your civ has no particular religious bonuses. It will be like your cities are invisible to the missionary spam! It amazed me the first time I tried it!

 

[Browd]

On the question:

If I get a Great Prophet as my first Faith spend after getting a religion, am I not increasing the Faith count for all players to get a religion? I would have thought that then results in another nation getting religion later, and me having more time to spread my religion.

Each civ's Great Prophets are on separate "faith increment timers". So, your getting a 200-faith Great Prophet on turn 90 does not increase the faith cost of other civs' Great Prophets or prevent another civ from getting its 200-faith GP (and founding a religion) on turn 91. As beetle notes, the religion race is, in part, a race to claim your preferred beliefs. If you do a round of missionary spread to jump-start your religion's spread, you will be delaying enhancing your religion, which may result in your losing a belief you really wanted. Such are the trade-offs in a strategy game (if you can do it all, there's not much to strategize about).

 

[GoStu]

1. Don’t found your religion in your capital.
2. Buy a missionary before enhancing, convert two of your cities.
3. Keep the three cities you settle all within 10 tiles of each other. If two cities are 11 tiles (or more) from each other, you loose half of your internal religious pressure!

Okay, I understand and agree to point three, and it's not that hard to keep within 10. Point 2 I think is debatable - to me it would depend on how tough the competition is for beliefs. If you're one of the first to found and you have good Faith per turn, then go for it. If you're mid-pack to found, then you're kind of condemning yourself to have a really crap second Follower belief.

Maybe I've overlooked something, but why not found a religion in your capital? Is it for strategic positioning of the Grand Temple, or what?

 

[civ54lyfe]

i'm a bit surprised you find it so easy to found a religion at the 2 highest difficulties, without a Faith hut or a Faith civ...

on a related note, i'm getting used to ignoring religion altogether ...if i weren't lucky to pop a hut and/or with cities on desert.

 

[adwcta]

i'm a bit surprised you find it so easy to found a religion at the 2 highest difficulties, without a Faith hut or a Faith civ...

The big AI bonus to faith is deity having two cities to start. It literally doubles the AI's speed. Building shrines first (second if you are not playing tradition) and getting to 4 cities is all you need to get a religion consistently on immortal.

 

[civ54lyfe]

definitely counter to my experience.

 

[eldiablonoche]

I'm just starting to test the deity waters and I can still usually found a religion, I'm just rarely first. So far, I'm finding it common for there to be a cascade of religions getting founded around turn 50-60.

But as always I've had a deity game where a religion stayed unfounded until the 1600s and I've had games where every religion except mine was enhanced by turn 80.

 

[GhostSalsa]

Then they're not really your friends, are they? On Deity, there's a higher level of diplo. needed. And other targets. AI doesn't prophet spam until mid game, so you have a while to build up a ton of good diplo, and to incite bad diplo between the other civs.

I think you are just having a lack of infrequent but still normal experiences. Built-up diplo has nothing to do with civs from continent 2 (that you don't meet until mid-game) sending prophets across an ocean to your holy city after turn 200. If it hasn't happened to you, fine. But it happens (twice to me with zero aggressive spreading to the other continent on my part, once from India even though we already had a DoF).