Why I used to support gay marriage, but no longer do.

Specifically why does 4 matter

Like, I expect the law to respect bigots themselves. Bigoted heterosexual people have the right to marry and reproduce, why would a gay person labelling someone else a bigot matter
 
Specifically why does 4 matter

Like, I expect the law to respect bigots themselves. Bigoted heterosexual people have the right to marry and reproduce, why would a gay person labelling someone else a bigot matter

4 is only even applicable because a few bigots use the pretense that they speak for all Christians to add weight to their disgusting views on the world. Then when they are justifiably denounced they extend their claim by saying that it is Christianity being denounced, not bigotry.
 
4 is only even applicable because a few bigots use the pretense that they speak for all Christians to add weight to their disgusting views on the world. Then when they are justifiably denounced they extend their claim by saying that it is Christianity being denounced, not bigotry.

All major world religions reject gay marriage. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Islam totally rejects it across all sects and all major denominations of Christianity reject it.
 
I'm gay but I'm not an extremist. I'll try to give my opinion on the points brought up in the OP.

1. Marriage can mean different things to different people. Just because it has been between a man and a woman (or multiple women) through most of history doesn't mean we can't expand the definition. Blindly adhering to tradition isn't really a justifiable reason.

2. I think when a gay couple has a child either through adoption or other means it is something you need to consider and to think about having a male or female figure in their life who will be close to them. This could be a grandparent or an aunt/uncle or close family friend. A heterosexual mother/father couple seems ideal as parents but we see in reality it's not unusual for it to not turn out that way. I think the individual parents are far more important than just coming to the conclusion that these people are great parents because they fit a preconceived notion of what those people will be like.

3. In this case I agree with the OP. I would strongly object to a business refusing to serve me or allow me on the premises. This would be going back to segregation days. However, if we're talking about someone performing a service for a private event, like catering or photographing a same-sex wedding, although I'm gay, I agree that the person involved should be allowed to refuse.

I will also add, when the OP says "they" this does not mean all gay people.

4. Again, who is "they"? I'm gay and some people in my extended family are Baptist ministers. I grew up going to church on occasion and I have respect for organized religion. Don't take the actions of some extreme activists to represent all gays.

5. How often does this really happen? I agree that it doesn't make sense to teach gay marriage. I mean, I didn't learn anything about heterosexual marriage in school. I think it's laudable to teach tolerance for people who are different and maybe this is what's happening. It's a difficult subject. I wouldn't want people to accuse me of indoctrinating students in a particular ideology. I think instead, I would want to instill the belief in children that even if people have different beliefs or lifestyles than yourself, you can accept them.

6. We've gone over this before in this thread. You're greatly exaggerating the frequency of gay sex scenes on TV.

7. If the event in question happened the way you said it did, then I would strongly disagree with the gay activists and accuse them of instigating homophobia because their actions were provocative and counter-productive to gay rights.

8. I find this a bit strange as well, this expansion of LGBT to include an expanding number of groups. I'm not saying I'm against it entirely but I wonder if it really helps for people to be so preoccupied with their sexuality if they're uncertain of it in the first place.

Last of all, most gay people to conform to society. I think you are taking the actions of extreme gay activists and thinking that all gay people are like this.
 
All major world religions reject gay marriage. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Islam totally rejects it across all sects and all major denominations of Christianity reject it.

Making the same nonsensical claim that these three religions are "all major world religions" that are being shoved down your throat in another thread makes it pretty apparent that there was no reason to reopen this one. Opening multiple threads to say the same thing is a form of trolling.

Moderator Action: Trolling (which ignores the above moderator warning), and PDMA. Banned for one day. If you think something is trolling, report it rather than engaging with it.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
All major world religions reject gay marriage. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Saying the same hopelessly inaccurate things in a second thread doesn't make you any less wrong.

(Ninja!)
 
Last of all, most gay people do conform to society. I think you are taking the actions of extreme gay activists and thinking that all gay people are like this.

Well, we have finally found some consistency in Civman...he also takes the actions of extreme Christian activists as indicative of all Christians, extreme homophobes as indicative of all heterosexuals...
 
Well, we have finally found some consistency in Civman...he also takes the actions of extreme Christian activists as indicative of all Christians, extreme homophobes as indicative of all heterosexuals...

Yes, I meant to say "Most gay people do conform to society." I should have looked at my post more carefully before posting it to check for errors.

Anyway, most of us don't dress up in bustiers and lip-sync to Madonna songs. In fact, I hate musicals and almost never go to the theater even when visiting NY.
 
Yes, I meant to say "Most gay people do conform to society." I should have looked at my post more carefully before posting it to check for errors.

Anyway, most of us don't dress up in bustiers and lip-sync to Madonna songs. In fact, I hate musicals and almost never go to the theater even when visiting NY.

I read it as intended and have corrected the typo in the quote.
 
Why [do children need to be raised with both a strong male and female influence]?

Er... they don't.

There's very strong evidence that they need one primary care-giver of either sex to provide them with a sense of stability and security.

There's some evidence that optimally they need exposure to both male and female role models.

There might be some evidence (depending on who you ask) that children who come from stable conventional two parent families do best.

But still. Who's going to thank you for a conventional upbringing?
 
1. Marriage can mean different things to different people. Just because it has been between a man and a woman (or multiple women) through most of history doesn't mean we can't expand the definition. Blindly adhering to tradition isn't really a justifiable reason.

You can't expand the definition without changing the religious beliefs of all the major religions. All major religions consider gay marriage to be sinful and do not recognize it.

If the term civil union was chosen the RFRA bill wouldn't even exist because you couldn't refuse services to a civil union for religious reasons. There would be no conflict. You wouldn't need religions to accept it (which they never will just the reality of it).

It really doesn't matter to me if gay people want to call it marriage as long as they are ok with religious people holding separate beliefs as long as homosexuals are guaranteed equal couples rights. It's a situation that can be best worked out with compromise whichever method you choose.

2. I think when a gay couple has a child either through adoption or other means it is something you need to consider and to think about having a male or female figure in their life who will be close to them. This could be a grandparent or an aunt/uncle or close family friend. A heterosexual mother/father couple seems ideal as parents but we see in reality it's not unusual for it to not turn out that way. I think the individual parents are far more important than just coming to the conclusion that these people are great parents because they fit a preconceived notion of what those people will be like.

I Agree.

I think a child being raised by a loving gay couple is much better than being in an abusive situation, or having no family at all. Gay people can be good parents.

"I think when a gay couple has a child either through adoption or other means it is something you need to consider and to think about having a male or female figure in their life who will be close to them. This could be a grandparent or an aunt/uncle or close family friend. "

I agree. I believe children look for that special male or female influence in their lives and it's something important that needs to be considered.

I will also add, when the OP says "they" this does not mean all gay people.

Totally agree.

4. Again, who is "they"? I'm gay and some people in my extended family are Baptist ministers. I grew up going to church on occasion and I have respect for organized religion. Don't take the actions of some extreme activists to represent all gays.

Fair enough.

5. How often does this really happen? I agree that it doesn't make sense to teach gay marriage. I mean, I didn't learn anything about heterosexual marriage in school. I think it's laudable to teach tolerance for people who are different and maybe this is what's happening. It's a difficult subject. I wouldn't want people to accuse me of indoctrinating students in a particular ideology. I think instead, I would want to instill the belief in children that even if people have different beliefs or lifestyles than yourself, you can accept them.

I agree, however often today things are used to push an agenda rather than teach acceptance and respect. Also it is commonly left out that acceptance and respect needs to come from both sides of the situation or it doesn't work. Not everyone is the same, but people need to do the best they can to respects others values and compromise instead of forcefully promote only what they alone think is best.

6. We've gone over this before in this thread. You're greatly exaggerating the frequency of gay sex scenes on TV.

I guess so, some shows do have an awful lot, however my point probably would have been better worded as the over representation of gay couples on television. I don't have a problem at all with gay couples being on tv. It's just irritating when something is so intentionally pushed in your face as an attempt to normalize it, but it will never appear normal to heterosexuals because that's just not how we are wired. We are not capable of seeing it the same way as homosexuals. It will always be uncomfortable on an instinctual level, which has nothing to do with being a bigot.

Lol, you can still support equality and respect and also feel uncomfortable seeing a gay sex scene.

8. I find this a bit strange as well, this expansion of LGBT to include an expanding number of groups. I'm not saying I'm against it entirely but I wonder if it really helps for people to be so preoccupied with their sexuality if they're uncertain of it in the first place.

I just don't think it's a good thing to legitimize every sexually deviant behaviour as healthy. Being attracted to the same sex does happen, but being totally confused about one's gender, or sexuality is really something very different imo.

Last of all, most gay people to conform to society. I think you are taking the actions of extreme gay activists and thinking that all gay people are like this.

It just seems like nowadays that the proponents of gay rights are a lot more extreme in general and also the movement has morphed into more than it originally was in a lot of cases. It could be because the loudest voices are often the most heard? Imo, they are doing a great disservice to gay rights.

Nothing good comes out of adversarial positions and that goes for religious people and heterosexuals as well. I just wish people on both sides could respect each other and their different beliefs. Instead of forcing one ideology over the other I wish people could just give everyone the freedom to live as they would like to live.

It can be hard not to get into a us vs. them mode at times, especially when people attack your beliefs, values, and religion etc. with such hostility and you are called a bigot when really the people making these accusations know next to nothing about you. I will try not to do that even if others are.

Thank you for your post.
 
There's some evidence that optimally they need exposure to both male and female role models.

There isn't, as far as I know.

The only thing that really matters is that the child has two parents in a stable household. The sex of these two parents is more or less irrelevant.
 
But marriage has existed between a man and a woman for 1000's of years. It may have only been classified as a sacrament in the last 900 years, but that is irrelevant. It is a religious ceremony and has always been so.

I went to a wedding last year that did not have a religious component at all.

How do you explain that?
 
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