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Why is anti-cavalry so bad?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Arent11, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    I don't want to complain too much, because I'm often using cavalry. However, I'm asking myself whether I'm overlooking something.

    I look at the numbers, the production cost, combat strength, speed, bonus against cavalry, and I'm sorry, I get the impression that anti-cavalry, at least early in the game, is in every respect worse than cavalry, even if they go up against their supposed arch enemy.

    Take pikemen: They are more expensive than knights, slower, weaker & way off the beaten path technologically.
    Take spearmen: They are almost as expensive as horsemen, slower & even with their combat bonus against horsemen only as strong as horsemen.

    Furthermore, anti-cavalry units always run into danger to come up against standard infantry, which in turn gets a bonus against anti-cavalry.

    So, I'm really a bit flabbergasted.
     
  2. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

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    landschenckts are very cheap. Half price of pikeman and you get to buy them and they can move on same turns. They are really good: If you play as zulu thei will have extra movement too
     
  3. Jaybe

    Jaybe civus fanaticus Supporter

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    Silly person. ;)
    This is civ6, not civ5. We have no landschenckts, nor Zulu in this game.
     
    Hitesh12 likes this.
  4. EpicWestern

    EpicWestern Warlord

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    Yeah its pretty worthless unless you're specifically trying to counter cavalry for whatever reason. My main reason for building them is when you're playing a science game and feel like you can get away with a beeline to chemistry. Its nice to have spearmen or pikemen already built (and some gold), so the second chemistry finishes you can upgrade to AT crew. Other stronger units (like infantry) would be nicer to have but its a completely different tech path. Also remember, AT crew might be weak head to head vs other melee units, but your still getting the same city defense bonus, which is actually more important than the units themselves.
     
  5. myclan

    myclan Prince

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    I think it will be better to make anti-cav Support unit like the anti-air gun. It is reasonable to have some AT crew to help to deal with the tank but it is silly to have a division equipped with Anti-tank weapon only and weak to normal infrantry.

    Another point is they don't have the +50% building policy. You have to build bombard to take a city but you never have to build a pike. Even +100% will not make them too strong
     
  6. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    But that's the point: They are not even a counter for knights. If I'm starting next to sumeria or macedonia & I *know* for sure that a human player will pull off their knights/great generals slingshot, I should be able to find the perfect counter. The logical choice would be anti-cavalry. The problem is that pikemen are *worse* than knights. If I want to counter knights, I have to build... knights.

    And if you beeline apprenticeship, then knights are only one additional tech, so it shouldn't really be hard to develop it even if you are beelining later techs.
     
    Securion likes this.
  7. EpicWestern

    EpicWestern Warlord

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    ^ Yeah I mostly agree, but I mainly play against AI on deity and usually you're getting out-teched so matching your opponents units isn't an option. Also, of course, cavalry and midgame melee units require strategic resources that aren't always available. That said, usually vs enemy cavalry that has you out-teched, the best response is a well placed encampment, walls, and archers/crossbowmen. I'll admit its pretty rare I'm building up anti-cavalry in a non-science game. I'd be in favor of a small buff to spearmen and pikemen.
     
  8. Phrozen

    Phrozen King

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    It is pretty silly since spearmen where by far the most numerous 'unit' in armies until gunpowder took over. They were cheap and usually a spear is an easy weapon to learn how to fight with, particularly in formation.
     
  9. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Prince

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    Yeah they are pretty worthless - I've been waiting for Firaxis to buff them in a patch but it hasn't happened yet. They definitely need some help.
     
  10. JustifierNA

    JustifierNA Warlord

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    It's quite simple really: There are multiple factors affecting their ability to perform in the current meta
    1. No civic cards provide extra production to pump them out
    2. The units they're supposed to counter go even in combat versus them
    3. Low mobility unit that is supposed to counter the highest mobility unit (if they applied Zone of Control to Cav units they're be god tier)
    4. Pike men are awkwardly placed on the tech tree
    5. The first (and so most important) type of Anti-Cav unit is available at Bronze working, and so does not benefit from Great Generals area of effect
    6. The main power you'll get from them is by pairing Anti-Cav with Forts which you need two later era techs (on the opposite side of the tech tree) to produce
    7. EXPENSIVE upgrades! it costs 100+ gold to upgrade from spear-men into pikes that's INSANE you're better off just getting the same unit that's attacking you than running with spear-men
     
  11. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    It sounds like you miss the point somewhat; the focus on "upgrade" is a red herring. The upgrade is expensive because the unit is expensive.
     
  12. JustifierNA

    JustifierNA Warlord

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    That's exactly the point friend :thumbsup: However the upgrade is important to note here because most power spikes come from upgrade timing pushes
    (not simply pumping out units...which wouldn't work in this case since there's no civics cards which provide bonus production towards Anti-cavalry units)

    and since the timing push from Spearmen-Pikemen is so insanely expensive it's easier (and cheaper) to simply go for a timing push that is both cheaper and more powerful with more movement points.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    What no-one has pointed out is Gorgo gets them as early swordsman ... well 1 less combat strength.

    I have been playing Gorgo a lot lately and I tend to forget about iron but no half price card is a pain.

    Having played with hoplites enough they are great troops until xbow come along... I think spearman should be 30, not 25, that will sort a lot out and them promotions are really quite scary, you can make them anti infantry as well as anti cav, an extra movement point is a weird but handy promotion. That square is a more handy promotion that people realise... but it's the level 4 promo that gets me... thank god the AI never has level 4 AT behind their tanks!

    The thing that makes me cry about hoplites is when you promote them to pikemen the difference is laughable.
     
  14. JustifierNA

    JustifierNA Warlord

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    Try using America instead: Double legacy bonus makes you get exp SUPER fast and it's only 5 CS difference. If you happen to get Kabul + around 30-50 turns of Oligarchy your spears/pikes level up insanely fast... and the upgrade to pikes is terrifying :D
     
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  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Sorry but 5 CS is a lot when other bonuses are factored in, it's about how many bonuses you can stack... and I know you love your culture, play Gorgo with barbs on deity .... you just ask them to keep on coming
     
  16. JustifierNA

    JustifierNA Warlord

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    I know all about Gorgo she's awesome :D buuut hoplites are currently broken because they do not require their adj hoplite to get +10 bonus
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    They may have done that on purpose, and why should they not get it when spears are rubbish and just too vulnerable to ranged. That is their real downfall, that ranged ignores support bonuses, it throws the rock, Paper and scissors into the water. Everything would work better if ranged did not ignore support.
     
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  18. JustifierNA

    JustifierNA Warlord

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    I can agree with that assessment of anti-cavalry, but since it was not in the official notes I assume it is an unintended bug
     
  19. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

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    In reality, one spear can't beat one horseman, so the combat strength is about right or even too high, but the former is substantially cheaper in terms of both building cost and maintenance. What they just need is to lower their cost, so player can mass build them.
     
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  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Spearmen are seriously weak against ranged as they have no upgrade path to help defend against them. When you consider support bonuses it just goes bad

    I played them a fair amount and no matter how hard I triedm they just died. Gorgos are the only decent ones.
     

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