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Why is Immortal so much harder than Emperor? How to win on Immortal?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by panama_joe, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. greenOak

    greenOak Chieftain

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    I'm surprised at some of the responses in this thread. Immortal is the most common difficulty I play, and I actually think its a relatively small gap between emperor and immortal. I find the gap between king and emperor to be the greatest, followed by the gap between immortal and deity. In my experience the extra AI settlers add the most difficulty.

    When going from emporer to immortal, the AI gets one extra warrior and one extra builder. You will tend to have the same amount of space to expand into on the two levels, but the AI can put a little bit more pressure on you in the early game, so you need military units. Speaking of military units, I used to make the mistake of building nothing but slingers, but you want to build warriors to park out in front of your cities to block the AI from attacking your city centre from multiple tiles in a turn. Also, don't get caught off guard by an early AI attack. If you see them march a single warrior toward your borders, you can expect an attack 90% of the time. If they send two military units near you its pretty much a certainty.

    Some other strategies to be aware of:
    -Sell the AI luxury resources as soon as possible. They have a lot of gold, and being able to by turns worth of production in the early game is a life saver. My standard openings lately has been to purchase my first builder.
    -Place districts as soon as they are available even if you don't want to build them right away. This locks them in at a cheaper price.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
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  2. greenOak

    greenOak Chieftain

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    You can get classical golden age reliably with certain civs - namely those that have uniques in the ancient era. But unless I'm playing one of those, I'm usually happy if I get a normal age.
     
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  3. Weraptor

    Weraptor Chieftain

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    Oops, I meant to buy my second or third settler with AI gold, before promoted Magnus or Colonization Policy comes in.
     
  4. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Everyone here tells you a list of "do-this", which is fine. I will tell you your real problem: psycho. Your barrier is in your mind. There is NO significant difference between EMP and IMM, none whatsoever. Just a little bump in some of the yields for the AI, that is not significant at all. The rest is all in your mind. Forget it is IMM, convince yourself that you are still playing EMP, and you will be fine.

    The bonuses are still similar, the AI is still the same non-AI, the combat AI is still the same joke, the bugs and/or horrible OP "features" are still there, and the difference in +1 of CS is nothing.

    That's all.
     
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  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Reliable is a fallacy but some tricks help. It is a question of what you are willing to sacrifice. People love an early pingala but I feel Magnus is still very strong, but if I need a golden classical I will be watching my score and getting Amani which can typically get me 6 GA points, a quarter of what I need.
    Huts are +1 but finding civs are +1 and much more reliable, why are people hung up on the points from huts.
    Scouts will find camps for +2/+3 GA points
    Scouts will find wonders, +2/+3 to find and +3 to settle
    Building a ship for +2/+3
    Building a swordsman and/or horseman for the same

    I find getting a classical golden on immortal much more reliable than getting goddess of the harvest, which is easier to get if you reload to milk a relic out of goody huts.

    A realistic game for me is often golden but not harvestable.
     
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  6. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

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    I find a classical golden age is really tough to get, even for civs with early bonuses. But I think that's beyond the scope of the discussion for people who are struggling to win at Immortal - a classical golden age is really nice, but not critical in the least for winning.

    As for my general tips, from someone who will usually win at immortal if I play it through (although I will often quit games early that I fall far behind on, so I'm far from claiming this is a 100% victory strategy):
    -Prepare for war. It's a rare game that you don't face an invading army from a neighbour, and if you don't, you're going to have that game with the annoying barb camp nearby. So be ready for it. I find if I have 2-3 slingers/archers, and 2-3 warriors, that's enough to stop nearly any early war from a neighbour. To prepare for that, you want the early policy card as a bonus to building them ASAP, and I also like to make sure I grab the Archery eureka and then tech it to within 1 turn. That way, I can keep building slingers with the policy card, and use gold to upgrade them to archers. It also helps once you have those first 2-3 troops to station them with good sightlines so you can watch your neighbour walk to you. Just because they declare a surprise war on you doesn't mean the war was actually a surprise. Honestly, about half the time, I'm sad if they don't declare, since I really do like getting that inspiration.
    -Try to find at least 1, preferably 2 nice campus spots within your first 2-3 cities. Science is king. If I find a +4 campus, then I don't need to get an early library. If I can only get +1 or +2, then usually I want to get a library with it. If you have a couple science city-states, great. If not, don't worry.
    -Try to keep your culture up as strong as your science. I find the games that go worst are the ones where I have 12-15 science per turn, but my culture is stuck at like 4-5 per turn. It just slows you down so much, and when you have to wait 10 turns for a policy change, that can really force you into a sub-optimal strategy. I don't build theatres early (maybe I should), but getting at least a monument per city, and ideally getting that first envoy into a couple cultural city-states goes a long way. If I notice a lack of writer points early, it can be useful to use the early wildcard government slot for 30 turns to pop out a writer. That little extra culture from them can be a huge bonus.
    -Ignore religion. Seriously, just stop. Once you're good at the game, you can decide when to go for religion. If you're not strong at the level, simply ignore holy sites and focus on the rest of your game. That being said, just because you're not going for religion doesn't mean that faith is useless. If you have a natural wonder nearby, snagging an early-ish +4 holy site can be a nice boost, since Faith can be a useful currency.
    -Don't worry if you're not ahead. The AI gets a ton of early bonuses, but you have a huge edge in the mid game. There's a lot of games where it feels like I'm dead in the water, but you beeline the right techs or civics, pull off that swordsman/horseman/knight/crossbow/etc... rush of a neighbour, and then things are just easy pickings from there on. Or maybe you don't have a good spot to beat down a neighbour. Then simply keep enough troops around to not die, expand as much as you can, and wait until muskets or cannons or whenever.
    -Finally, use your civ's bonuses, and have fun. It's a game, it's not a competition. If you're playing Rome, build baths in every city even if you don't feel you need them. If you're Norway, build boats. The strategy might not always be optimal, but if it's more interesting to play that way, that's all that matters :) And if you're like me, don't worry if you quit a bunch of games :p Seriously. If I start a game and on turn 25 Russia comes to my door with 3 slingers and 4 warriors, I'll take my licks and start a new game. So I just lost. So what. I wasted a half hour, maybe, and you learn something for next time. Move on, start a new game, and find a map/situation that you like playing.
     
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  7. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Warlord

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    There are an enormous number of good suggestions for you to heed, so I'll just add my own favourites.
    1. Get scouts out in search of CS and other civs as fast as you can.

    2. Be wary of who you trade with. Iron and horses will almost certainly come back at you in a "modified" form, so trade those items (even for a slightly lower price) with weaker (or more distant) civs in the hope that it will help them last longer against your tougher opponents.
     
  8. MrRadar

    MrRadar Chieftain

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    Plenty of good advice in previous posts.
    I'd only like to stress that it is not necessary to go to war early each and every game, especially with 1 city of yours against 3 of the AI's. Of course, if you play Nubia, it would be sad to leave your Pitati Archers without action, but if you play a civ with no early UU, why not to try giving diplomacy a chance - send delegations, play to satisfy their agendas, turn (some of) your neighbours into your friends and allies, and then you'll have to worry less about military. You can even make a friend of neighbouring Monty, well, not always, but if you do, he might become your buddy for life. If a neighbour takes a city spot you wanted so bad... how about trying 'live and let live' approach? So what, congrats to them, you'll look for another spot or two. And then maybe you'll happen to be in a golden age while they're in a dark one... and who knows how it will turn out in the end.

    And if you go to early war, don't just jump the gun (or arrow?), prepare a bit more - get at least a second city asap, or even a third. With two cities you're much more stable, with three you can take over the landmass. Or at least come back after losing your capital :)

    Early scouting, early new cities, efficient chopping, policy card juggling and production switching when necessary usually pays off. Also don't settle on the two civs you mentioned, try more of the others, don't get stuck in a rut with them and with the same-ish playstyle every game.

    Edit:
    Forgot to ask and don't see anybody asking that neither:
    Do you micro-manage your citizens? That is, lock them in the tiles they should work? Later game it is not so important, but early game you better micro them for best results - helps you time city growth or production completion or emphasize science, culture, gold, etc. City AI will not always pick to work the tile you might want. You can also use focus locks in the city screen. On lower difficulties you can live with everything on auto, but as you climb higher, you want more control everywhere.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  9. steveg700

    steveg700 Warlord

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    Getting the classical GA boils down to two things pretty much:

    1) Explore.
    2) Clear barb camps.

    It is more luck than skill. For instance, if you're crowded with AI's or CS's, you'll have fewer camps (they only spawn in areas that are left unwatched, after all).

    As for all the "ignore religion" advice--Meh. You get what you put into it.

    Immortal is a jump because ever AI civ will have three cities to your one, and they'll be able to out-expand on that basis if left unchecked (not necessarily by you).
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I disagree, as stated earlier Amani will typically get me 1/4 of the way there and that is skill.
    Building an early galley for +3 or a little later for +2 may not seem like a lot but you treat it like a guaranteed barb cap, as are horses and swords.
    +3 campus or HS adjacency is another barb camps worth.
    Settling within 2 tiles of a wonder is another barb camp as was finding that wonder.
    Find 5 civs is 5 era points.... scout first is really quite key but it does risk early destruction.
    If you get early UU/UI you can guarantee yourself one in many cases. As long as you are willing to sacrifice other things... for example Amani rather than a triple Pingala.
     
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  11. Kwami

    Kwami Warlord

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    Yeah, there are plenty of games where going for a religion is a good idea, even on higher levels.

    The AI gets the same number of Settlers on Emperor and Immortal.
     
  12. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

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    This.

    Out of curiosity, what do ppl do with classical golden ages when you do not have harvest? You do not have that many districts and likely your commercial hubs/harbors are not really up (if you had really sacrificed hammers on ships, scouts, etc. to get the golden age... not to mention the very unfortunate tech paths you take to get the early galley/harbor). A transient suzerain just for the sake of era points had better have something to justify the early governor promotion (for example, emergency levy army against an incoming wave, or a gamebreaking suzerainty bonus--which I cannot think of any, tbh.. perhaps only Kandy is justifiable).
     
  13. Kwami

    Kwami Warlord

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    You can get a fair bit of Gold and Faith without Harvest. Holy Sites, Commercial Hubs and Harbors, City States, worked tiles, whatever pantheon and religion you got, etc. Buying Builders (and maybe Settlers) with the 30% discount is fantastic for your economy, no matter what you're trying to do. The extra movement is also good. Ideally, you'll get another golden age for the next era, too.
     
  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Still monumentalty. Builders moving faster and cheaper to buy with gold is solid especially if you eant to speed chop wonders.

    But yes it is overrated and going out of your way only to end up in a dark/ normal medieval sucks.Getting too many pre feudal builders has negative effects too.

    A bit of culture from districts is fine too, and maybe +2 religion spread. I think the science one is a gimmick outside of Japan, Kongo, Germany, or Mali
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  15. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

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    There's certainly a ton of skill involved, but even the points you list often are luck. For example:
    -Some games I just don't have a lot of CS nearby, so even being able to rush for a quick Amani sometimes I can only get a single +2 from being the first ally. I find the Amani bonuses for me are more in the next era, when I can get a little more exploring in and have a better chance at completing a quest.
    -Campus or HS bonus yeah are nice to secure, but I'd say it's probably only a 50/50 or less chance that I have a +3 site available. Although I guess if I were a bit more skilled I could probably better plan to settle my 2nd city and rush in a chop to get the district built.
    -Wonders are a big variable. If you get lucky, you get the +3 for being the first one to find it, and then another +3 for settling nearby. But again, probably 50/50 or less that you actually have one close enough.
    -Scout first, yeah, that's probably something I need to use more, especially if I feel I'm running for that early golden age. Although again, sometimes the map doesn't yield 5 neighbours. My current game is a continents map, where I literally only had one other neighbour on my continent (and only 2 nearby CS, although had I gone scout first I could have probably found another couple CS stuck up north)

    And sometimes the luck comes on turn 1. I remember trying some games as Hungary, if you start on a continent border, you can begin the game with +4 era score for being the first to find a new continent. And if you get lucky, I've moved my settler to the new continent and gotten another +2 for being the first city there, never mind a potential +1 for being near a volcano or floodplain. I know I had at least one game recently where I was already at 6 or 7 era score by the end of turn 1, which yeah, in that case it's definitely a lot easier to find the rest of the points.

    Yeah, even without much of a faith economy set up, the 30% discount on buying builders plus the extra move points makes it worthwhile. Or sometimes I will actually pick the religious dedication, since getting those +4 prophet points is nice to race for the last religion, although I find more often than not the rest of that dedication is wasted since I don't make it to apostles in time to make the extra spreads worth it.
     
  16. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing Chieftain

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    Play through the opening AI rush on diety a couple times. That helped me get better.
     
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  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I use 1 charge builders to explore at sea with 4MP amongst other listed things above
    Try... some you miss others you get. In good games you can get 50+ era points in an ancient era. You have to keep your eye on everything... settling next to a volcano or on desert
    Best advice out there :thumbsup: play through an immortal games a few times, the first 50 turns to see if you can get more... replays get you better regardless of what you are trying.
     
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  18. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Yes! Sometimes it can feel hopeless. I remember a game as Scotland where I was rushed by Arabia and while fighting that off Japan surprise DoWed me and captured my capital. I thought about rerolling but decided to play it out. I just went total war economy, built up an army and conquered Japan. Cruised to a science VC after that while Arabia languished at 3 cities.

    You can really turn around a hopeless situation sometimes. Of course if Japan had been Sumeria instead....I think I'd have just rerolled.
     
  19. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    I am quite surprised you can play Immortal or Deity and pick Amani for the first governor. I thought almost everyone went Magnus/Provision first or Pingala for the early science boost. Sometimes I pick Victor, but that is because I am warmongerish, especially if my neighbor is not a S-Tier or A-Tier civ with a strong early UU. In those rare times I am in a bad stalemate with a strong civ for a neighbor, Victor can be great with a forward settler to give me enough combat boost to negate that stupid bonus the AI gets on Deity.

    Either way it seems strange that you are not trying to expand as fast as possible through war or fast settlers. Usually if you cannot get at least a certain amount of cities up by a certain time, you might not win the game. Even more so if you are running that Real Strategy mod.
     
  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    My most chosen first governor is Amani.
    If there is a culture CS I do not have an envoy in +2 alone can be very useful
    That eary suze can be a handy suze... as well as for levy ability
    Also those early diplomatic points are worth about 20 gold each currently going for GPT.
    But primarily for golden ages.... although the cash does help. You get around +9-+12 Golden points with some luck and swapping. sort of hard to turn down but this value is not so good on deity and to a degree immortal as the ages are shorter.

    You get 4 early governor promotions so there is good choice now.
    Magnus up to black marketeer allows you a very fast sword rush, as a minimum his chop value is great but he typically does not chop that much too early but chopping in settlers is such a great step. Having a heavy food start allows you to avoid provision and sometimes I will take Liang as a third because with pyramids thats an early 5 charge builder.
    Pingala.... if I want to knight rush then Pingalas science or culture is an option but both is 3 governor charges for something that does not scale with the game. I am much more interested in Pins 100% GPP for a fast CV
    Victor is sort of odd, you may need him then you don't but he is a handy war thing with 2 promos
    And thats what is boils down to ... what do I need to do... do I want an early golden, am I being attacked? Do I have a pyramid location, where is my iron and what is my plan.
    Amani and Magnus both have great starting abilities.
    Pingala may rush your science and culture too much early if not careful and your districts get expensive but regardless Oracle Pingala is a sight to behold but it is at the cost of other governors.
    Liang also has a great starting ability that is just costy efficient if needing extra builder charges early
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019

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