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Why is Immortal so much harder than Emperor? How to win on Immortal?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by panama_joe, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    This has turned into a really useful thread with lots of nice tips. I hadn't thought of it but depending on the CSs you meet and how rapid your early expansion is Amani could out produce Pingala in early culture or science. Now that I think about it, one promotion on Amani with her dropped into a science CS with one envoy would not you as much if not more science than Ping plus era points to get the early GA. She does that with one promo leaving you more to dump into Magnus and Liang or Pingala later.

    I have a hard time not picking Magnus first because I often have to chop to get my ideal district spot open and I hate chopping without him. Amani might be my second pick in the future though.
     
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  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    That early chop to clear nets you about 10 extra prod as a one off with Magnus versus how much culture?
    You been livin on reputation alone for the early get?
     
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  3. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

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    Depends on your dirt, really... if you get a plains gypsum/jade start (and I hate those!) without any food bonuses on nearby tiles then I'd say go for Magnus since you might as well chop what you can and focus building a 2nd "capital" or conquering somewhere else (or rather, just reroll the map actually... or be content to move your settler for several turns).

    If you start with lots of food to grow to size 5+ then Pingala is a no-brainer.
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    R u sure about that?
     
  5. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I never pick Amani because the game thinks it's funny to put all the city states on the other side of the world.
     
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  6. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    2 per turn between State Workforce and Early Empire, I suppose if I went Amani first It'd be quicker to get Magnus for my second.

    Still like getting Provision on him ASAP if I'm going peaceful so I can spread and Black Marketeer if I'm being aggressive. I think early Ping is overrated. You need a decent output of culture and/or science for him to have much effect until he has his second and third promo. He's best once you have a campus/theater with good adj and probably even the tier 1 bldg. Takes a couple promos to get him to be a big producer and that's mostly just if you have a decent sized city. Liang is decent with one promo but as pointed out overbuilding builders before feudalism can be counterproductive. Amani might be one of the better early governors because she can produce culture/science/gold/faith and snag you era points if you get a suzeraine from her with only one promo.

    Definitely makes me think more.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Even in the early days, those that got really fast games going said do not finish techs and civics you do not need. This is because the cost of your districts go up by roughly 4 production per the higher of the two.
    Early you either do a science rush to horses/knights or a culture rush to Feudalism. Both keep the quantity of early discoveries down unless you stray. Pingala does speed these up so if used wisely Pin can give you a faster beeline but the end effect can still be inflated district prices.
    It is about getting cities laid with first districts early in the expansion phase and then playing catch up. It works but is counter intuitive. Pingala works on your intuition, that better science and culture is good. I see Pin as a way to play culture catch up if you are not generating enough but to use hide when you are generating enough has the same issue as the Romans, you finish civics before you have time to get the inspirations and so some of the culture generated is effectively wasted.
    In reality for a fast culture game going Pin x3 to get 100% great writers is what I would typically use him for and the extra culture and science along the way is great. I tried him for fast knights twice and ran out of gold once because I got greedy and the second time just had 3 knights (still expensive early) and they did very well. So there is mileage in Pin but so much contention with other governors.
     
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  8. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    I guess before the latest patch Amani was just too risky in my opinion. If Germany or certain other civs were in the game near me, those city states are toast. The city states survive alot better now, but I have recently had games were they still get taken early. I cannot stand it when mercantile and science city states get taken near me often making me warmonger when I had no plans to do so.

    Liang used to be optimal back in Rise and Fall, I don't think so anymore.

    I only pick pingala when playing peaceful and have bad starting tiles, like production. That said you need the population for him to work well so if you have a poor food start, he might not be the best choice. That said I will always pick him up 2nd no matter who was picked first.
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Sure... IF they were close... you should know that by the time Amani comes around. The point is you get a a few governor promotions and time to decide. all I am doing is challenging those concepts we had in V that there was always an optimal take. It really does depend on circumstance and when I stop clicking next and thinking for a couple of minutes, knowing I get another couple of governor promotions soon, I often (but by no means always) pick Amani, I have done so before GS came out.
     
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  10. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Lol, I always celebrate a dumb AI sacking a CS near me. It's a guilt free war to go liberate the CS that always nets you free envoys.
     
  11. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    That's like eating one potato chip. Who does that? Lol
     
  12. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

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    Try Inca + Pingala... And if possible get a housing wonder + granary.
    You'll be amazed how fast the early culture tree melts (poly phi in 4 turns etc.) with an early pop 10 capital with him in it. The extra tiles from culture growth is also noticeable.
     
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  13. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    lol well in that situation it's a no brainer but what if you're not playing a food heavy civ in a food heavy capital with no housing wonder?
     
  14. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    The Incas are just disgusting. I remember when they were revealed many here thought they were going to be weak, LOL. I knew better back then. They were likely going to be the closest thing to a Civ5 India in a way, because of the population, and with the new Pingala it was going to scale very big in one city. That's just one synergy too. Incas have 2 or 3 more. Possibly others I haven't thought of. After a while it is just overkill. I still cannot figure out where Inca truly rank in the S-Tier in my book. Only a bad custom map or an island plates map hampers them, and even then if the water map has a decent amount of mountains in his starting spot, he can still be strong. I did a deity water map for Dido not too long ago and the Incas were the hardest AI in the game to beat out. Dude had 5 mountains around him and several hills, even on that island water map.
     
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Horrified is more like it. In the expansion phase I want to place cheap districts, not expensive ones. Culture does not speed up my settlers after Early empire, and I do not have a level2 Pin before then. As long as my culture gets me to Feudalism around T80 I am happy. If it will not then sure I’ll consider him. I would rather have settler chop from Magnus or Favor gold from Amani to buy settlers. How much culture is provision worth?
    Pin is overrated (unless talking GPP creation) but then you can win with Moksha so I guess it matters not unless playing fast.
    Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against Pingala and will take him first for various reasons but he is in no way a default choice for me, quite the opposite, I probably take him first less often than I use Black marketeer early... no horses but found 20 in a goody hut? ... thank god for black marketeer and Magnus can chop 4 of them in fast.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  16. Midgardsormr

    Midgardsormr Chieftain

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    Yeah, I think Pingala's a bit of overkill for the Inca. I actually like Liang first for the extra Builder charge if I don't need early chops—I love those tunnels. And since Incas usually have decent production from the start, I don't feel so much pain from putting off Magnus for a little while.
     
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  17. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

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    I favor him (even in non-Oracle games, but in which case once I reach drama and poetry and sub him into my 2nd city and put no-pop-loss-on-settler Magnus in my cap... this of course, means ancestral hall is well on its way during the switch)... you can chop the theatre out if you want (not necessary--the thing I want most is the +2 great writer card and the wild card slot early) or just chop out settlers the good old way.

    If I get Oracle then I figure the double GPP is worth more than the pop loss.

    Why? It is because the culture from early books just makes border growth, etc. much faster as well as quickly reaching feudalism so your newly settled cities have 5-charge builders. The district cost scales, but also does the chop value... if I'm chopping in my districts then it hardly matters when it happens since it takes roughly the same amount of chops regardless of era. (unless of course, you wanted to use chop overflow into something else... but since the overflow is nerfed, not sure how good that currently is)

    Now, great culture people are more valuable the earlier they come (in contrast to scientists)... 60 GPP for a permanent +8 culture is just too good to pass up. However the cost DOUBLES once you get past the first era so early GW points, as it were, are worth many GW points later in the game. A classical writer provides the same culture as a medieval and renaissance writer (in contrast to merchant gold, or scientist bulk science/eurekas which scale in magnitude with era). Unlike campi, theatres have normally zero adjacency yields in a typical city, so their typical purpose is to generate GPP and act as slots later on rather than directly generating culture. Which means, the sooner they are finished, the better (hence waiting for chop value to increase is wasting the precious GPP you could've gotten

    Of course, if your plan is a horse rush... I can see why black marketer is crucial unless you have like 4-5 horse tiles.
     
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  18. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    District scaling is such an annoying mechanic. I thought people just preplace their districts to get around it? (Don't do it myself)
     
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  19. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    I'm not super conscientious about it but do generally build them as my next build whenever they come up to avoid them being more expensive later. Probably not always the most efficient way but, whatever, you don't need airtight efficiency to win.

    The other way around it is to just avoid techs and civics you dont need. That one bugs me because I'm a completist and I hate having a bunch of one turn techs and civics I could pick up but dont want to because of the scaling. I do it, just grudgingly.
     
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