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Why is my reputation not broken?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by smackster, Dec 3, 2004.

  1. smackster

    smackster SGOTM

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    Why is my reputation not broken.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75748

    C3C, latest patch, load the save, you will see that I am at war with Inca, and have an alliance with Maya against them. We all know America, and nobody else is at war.

    Here are the steps to take.

    America will join against Inca for 14 GPT.
    Declare war with Maya (breaking our alliance)
    America will still join against Inca for 14 GPT.
    America will join against Maya for 19 GPT
    Declare peace with Inca
    America will join against Maya for 19 GPT

    So America does not seem to care about our broken alliance.

    Maybe its just about alliances, but no, get a GPT for gold deal with Maya. Say 10 Gold for 2 GPT. Then declare war, you get their 10 gold for free. Go back to America and they will give you the same per turn deals/alliances as before.

    I have other saves, with others issues, but lets take them one at a time.
     
  2. punkbass2000

    punkbass2000 Des An artiste

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    Did you ever press 'end turn'? After getting to the nest turn, the Americans would make no such deals with me, refusing any alliance offer outright. They will still accept gpt.

    EDIT: In fact, no one will consider an alliance for anything, not counting the Inca/Maya who are already at war with each other and have nothing to lose via an alliance vs. each other.
     
  3. smackster

    smackster SGOTM

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    I thought so, but I'll look again and try that later as you suggest. Watch this space.
     
  4. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    i'll take a look later too. i'm keenly interested in what you are trying to figure out as it's not all that clear to me either.
     
  5. smackster

    smackster SGOTM

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    Hi Grahamiam,

    Glad to see you here, as we need a few good heads to work this out. I had preconceived ideas that I put together over the years, I wrote them down, and then started test games to prove my theories, problem is that I found basic situations that didn't work the way I expected.

    smackster
     
  6. smackster

    smackster SGOTM

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    I tried what you suggested, and there was no difference, I could still get an alliance with America, against any civ I'm at war with.
    Let me know exactly what you did and then post a save.

    Its simple, load the game, declare war with Maya, declare peace with Inca, end the turn, you can still get a an alliance with America against Maya. Obviously you can get one against Inca.
     
  7. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    T1: 30AD Current diplomatic situation: Allied with Maya vs Inca for 20T. 18T on peace treaty with America.
    Can ally America for 14gpt vs Inca
    Declare war on the Mayan.
    Can get alliance vs Inca for 14gpt, vs Mayan for 19gpt.
    Don’t do either so I hit enter to end the turn.

    Fortify all active units except the 3 or 4 on automove. Do not touch any governors.

    IBT: MDI defends against a JT.
    Cuzco riots
    Bursa MDI -> MDI
    Iroquois, Aztecs building Sun’s


    T2: 50AD Can ally America for 14gpt vs Inca or 19gpt vs Mayan. They also want Fuedalism.
    To further this, I build embassy’s everywhere but no one knows the Inca or Mayan yet.

    Interesting, I try to buy 28g from the Americans for 4gpt but I get rejected, reason = “Not after the way you treated Maya, Osman.”
    However, 5gpt is doubtful, and 9gpt is acceptable.
    Does this mean that the AI is, in fact, buyable?



     
  8. smackster

    smackster SGOTM

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    I think it means that there really is a reputation value that goes up/down, however there may be certain events that make it go so high you can never bring it back (as the number is not in the editor, we don't really know).
    I suggest that this makes it just seem like its on / off, but in reality it does go up / down.

    Also my theory is that the earlier you break it the less effect. Maybe governments have something to do with it.

    I do have saves where you can break it for good with everyone in one broken deal, and you can offer them 1000GPT for a map, and they wont accept it, so I'll be back with one.

    Note I did try this with PTW and it was the same, so its not a C3C bug.
     
  9. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    in 3grams, someone broke a Military Alliance with Japan in the last save, and we cannot get 9g for 39gpt from them. we cannot sign another MA, nor can we get an MPP.
     
  10. smackster

    smackster SGOTM

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    And that is the standard way I see it work. So I don't know why it wont work like that here.

    I see in that game you are post 800AD. This is what I always experience later in the game. I tend to think that I never really break the rep much in the early game periods.
     
  11. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    but it doesn't seem logical to base this on date. it must have to do with the value of the deal that is broken. maybe, somehow, the stronger you are militarily, the more valuable your MA is?
     
  12. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    I've had the AI refuse GPT deals (especially huge ones) regardless if my rep. is intact or not. I think the programmers scripted this well, and kudos to them. I, as a human player, would never accept such a deal knowing the risks. I noticed the AI always wants something immediate from me to trade something valuable, and not just gpt. I also know they themselves broke many a treaty like thatw with me and they could stilly happily trade with other civs.
     
  13. smackster

    smackster SGOTM

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    This is a very common misconception, what I am 100% sure of is that your reputation is never broken, unless you do something that breaks it. The most common way this happens is an over seas trade deal, where a single barb galley in the wrong place, breaks the trade route and you lose your reputation.

    This is all very logical and I was able to explain this in my guide (of which I never published for reasons in post 1). The absolute value of a trade is never effected by reputation. Therefore if the AI has a tech and will sell it for 500 gold, then you can break your rep really badly, and they will still sell it for 500 gold. What reputation does effect are those items that are given per turn, for a specific comodity that the AI has like a tech, or maps. So with rep in tact I can get the tech for say 20GPT or 500 gold (or some combination), but after I break my rep, I can only pay 500 gold.

    What we don't know is if the AI can trade per turn with each other after breaking reputation (we can't see AI deals). But as the AI trading is cheaper they can often get techs for techs or cash, deals that we cannot get after their rep is broken.
     
  14. smackster

    smackster SGOTM

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    OK I'll test some value deals, see if we can get a value that breaks it.

    I was just guessing about the age of things, just clutching at an explanation.
     
  15. punkbass2000

    punkbass2000 Des An artiste

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    I have no absolute proof by any means, but I believe that the AI does not consider each others reputation in anyway. In my games, anyway, they all break alliances to me very early in the game and still have no trouble signing them throughout the game. Then again, maybe the AI just doesn't care about slighting the human specifically ;).
     
  16. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    maybe a good test would be as follows:

    1. make an MA while you have 25 warriors (these are your only military units), then break it

    2. same as above, except upgrade all 25 warriors to swords, then break it

    3. same as above, except upgrade all 25 warriors to MDI, then break it

    4. same as above, except upgrade all 25 warriors to Guirilla's, then break it.

    If the AI bases the value of the MA on your attack strength, and if your ability to trade is effected by the value of the deal broken, then there should be a large difference between 1 and 4.

    I can't do this now as i have to meet some friends in an hour or so. Later tonight, i'll set something up with the editor.
     
  17. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    that would be breaking the AI's reputation, not yours. your reptuation would still be clean if they were the ones who sign peace. you would have to know what the AI's deals were to determine if thier rep was permenantly damaged.
     
  18. punkbass2000

    punkbass2000 Des An artiste

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    Yes, I know. To be more clear, they still make alliances with each other without problems.
     
  19. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    maybe it's related to the AI-to-AI trade rate that is setup by the difficulty level? the higher the difficultly, the cheaper the value of the MA, therefore, the less rep damage by breaking the deal?
     
  20. punkbass2000

    punkbass2000 Des An artiste

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    That's conceivable.
     

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