[RD] Why Men Need to be Involved in the #MeToo Movement

[Lemon Merchant]

I was reading the morning news feed today, and I came across a couple of articles about the #MeToo movement and "Toxic Masculinity". There have been a number of research projects by sociologists and psychologists designed to study what it is like to be a man. Specifically, what it is like to be a man in 2017-2018. It turns out that many men have the same insecurities, needs and desires as women do, which has surprised a number of researchers.

I understand the science behind this, but I cannot truly understand what it is like to be a man in this day and age because I can't walk a mile in his shoes. Many men are feeling attacked by the #MeToo movement, which just adds to their newly discovered insecurities. Others are actively fighting against it. Still others don't care. I, myself, disagree with some of the movement as it denies men due process once accused. I firmly believe in the presumption of innocence, and you just can't get that when you are accused of sexual impropriety on Facebook.

So I'm linking a couple of articles on the subject which I read today. I invite you to read and comment. What I would really like to get out of this thread is a better understanding of what men experience in today's society, but I would also like to see some honest reaction from both men and women to the #MeToo movement.

Here are the two articles. They are short reads:

http://www.chatelaine.com/living/toxic-masculinity-essay/

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/lifestyle...eel-“nothing”/ar-BBJI8Fa?li=AAggxAX&ocid=iehp

And please remember that this is an RD thread.

 

[warpus]

Do you mean that men who have been sexually abused should come out and use the #metoo hashtag on social media? Has that not been happening? I thought it was a movement to highlight sexual abuse of all kind but maybe I'm wrong.

Seems like a good idea to try to understand people, whether they're men or women. We're all human so we'll have lots of things in common, but some differences too. But having said that I'm not sure if an informal survey can be trusted in terms of reliability. Unless they have the proper people on staff to put together a good survey that you can use to draw good conclusions from. I mean, it's not surprising to me that as humans we have lots of things in common, but it also seems to me that you'd want to use science and proper statistical methodologies to pull out some solid data here

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I'm not referring to sexually abused men using the #MeToo hashtag. That would probably ignite a crap storm like you wouldn't believe. I'm not an active participant in #MeToo, but I believe that is it pretty much reserved for women's issues with sexual harassment, though I could be wrong about this. Please educate me if I am.

I'm looking at the buzzword of "toxic masculinity", and I'm wondering what the male experience is like in our current times, and how that corresponds to women's experiences. I can obviously understand the women's experience, but I have no frame of reference for the male point of view other than studies I have read. Not really the same. I'm hoping for some honest dialog about what it is to be male these days.

 

[warpus]

I don't really use social media, but from what I've heard it's just women using it. But.. I figured maybe it was more inclusive and I just wasn't paying attention

I'm looking at the buzzword of "toxic masculinity", and I'm wondering what the male experience is like in our current times

From my personal male point of view, I don't know if I can relate to a "male experience". I find as much in common with women as in men.. or should I rather say as much not in common. It really differs from individual to individual. Hopefully no part of my personality is toxic.

I saw mention of problems like anxiety, etc. in the surveys and the questions they asked, but I didn't spend a lot time looking. From my POV I would say there is a bit of social pressure to "be cool" as a man, "man up", etc. But it's not a huge problem for me personally, and I don't understand what this has to do with women getting sexually harassed. It would make sense to try to get a better understanding of the minds of the people doing the harassing. But I suppose they might or might not be truthful when filling out a survey...

 

[Kaitzilla]

I for one am glad to see something like the #MeToo movement bubble up and topple some powerful, repeat offenders.
Our system obviously let some stuff slide through the cracks over the years/decades.

Some ugly stuff pops up too.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Destroy-...0c-20&linkId=011d7107197dd26755b2abbe528253f3

Due Process?
Our leaders have taken a firm stand on that ancient belief.
http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...-the-guns-first-go-through-due-process-second

...
I'm looking at the buzzword of "toxic masculinity", and I'm wondering what the male experience is like in our current times, and how that corresponds to women's experiences. I can obviously understand the women's experience, but I have no frame of reference for the male point of view other than studies I have read. Not really the same. I'm hoping for some honest dialog about what it is to be male these days.

Male point of view?
Ah, that's really tough!

A lot of the old social rules and rights of passage are gone, so everyone just kind of wings it I think.

1/3rd of men don't grow up with dad around, so that can't be good.

Most men I know are scared to marry the wrong person.



Personal experience might be way off base here, but generalizing for all men seems wrong too by going outside of knowledge base.
Might need a few hundred men to talk about their personal experiences and then package them all together.
Put a PG label on it since this is family friendly forum.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

and I don't understand what this has to do with women getting sexually harassed.

I think the gist of the articles is that men are feeling an enormous amount of pressure from the movement, and it's causing them to have to re-evaluate their behaviour, if not their position in society. With women flinging sexual harassment accusations everywhere, a lot of men are understandable nervous. To the point of being shouted down when even trying to discuss issues regarding gender roles. I've actually seen a well meaning man trying to have a dialog with a couple of women only to be shrieked at and shouted down by them. Not exactly constructive discourse. This behaviour has to take a toll on men.

 

[warpus]

Ahh okay. I haven't noticed any change at all personally, in my life, so maybe I have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

I can understand how male actors, directors, etc. and others in the spotlight are probably sweating a bit though

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I for one am glad to see something like the #MeToo movement bubble up and topple some powerful, repeat offenders.

Don't get me wrong. So am I. But these cases belong in a court of law. Many are being aired for the first time on social media where the appropriate "backlash" against the man ensues. How can you argue a case when it is aired in the court of public opinion? The verdict is in before the post is even propagated through all of the servers in the server farm.

Some ugly stuff pops up too.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Destroy-...0c-20&linkId=011d7107197dd26755b2abbe528253f3

If the author is a real doctor, she should be stripped of her PhD. A book like that just makes the entire situation worse.

 

[inthesomeday]

I think the gist of the articles is that men are feeling an enormous amount of pressure from the movement, and it's causing them to have to re-evaluate their behaviour, if not their position in society.

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

With women flinging sexual harassment accusations everywhere, a lot of men are understandable nervous.

It’s a myth that women are “flinging sexual harassment accusations everywhere”, that really doesn’t happen even anywhere near as often as MRAs would have you believe. And any man who is understandably nervous about being accused of sexual assault should be, because he probably sexually assaulted someone.

To the point of being shouted down when even trying to discuss issues regarding gender roles.

It’s about time, that’s been happening to women for a few millennia now.

I've actually seen a well meaning man trying to have a dialog with a couple of women only to be shrieked at and shouted down by them. Not exactly constructive discourse.

What exactly was the dialog he tried to open? Because if he was shouted down I doubt he was trying to introduce anything constructive in the first place.

This behaviour has to take a toll on men.

Maybe men who have a lot invested in the concept of their own masculinity and the power it gives them.

 

[Farm Boy]

I dunno. I'm glad people can talk about things they didn't feel they could talk about. I'm glad we feel like we can pursue criminals. But I don't get the form. A friend of my wife posted a shirt she said she was going to get for her sons, it said something like:

"Boys will be Boys" then it had an "X" through the second "Boys" then it wrote in stuff like "Kind, Considerate, Thoughtful" and all I could think of was - This is kinda damned redundant if you aren't a piece of &#%@, isn't it? Were you going to raise your boys to be pieces of @&#% but now they'll be floormats instead or something? Whatever, I don't think I get it. We used to call criminals criminals and pieces of @#*$ pieces of @&#%. Now we call them men, sometimes, I guess. Eh, I'm not pressured, I'm burnt.

 

[Arwon]

I'm not referring to sexually abused men using the #MeToo hashtag. That would probably ignite a crap storm like you wouldn't believe. I'm not an active participant in #MeToo, but I believe that is it pretty much reserved for women's issues with sexual harassment, though I could be wrong about this. Please educate me if I am.

There certainly have been some male victims of assault telling their stories. Terry Crews for instance.

 

[red_elk]

If I was a public person or celebrity, I would be worried about MeToo movement regardless if I did anything wrong.

In short, because of this:

Some ugly stuff pops up too.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Destroy-...0c-20&linkId=011d7107197dd26755b2abbe528253f3

Somebody can just destroy your reputation out of revenge or other motives and you cannot do much to defend yourself.

And about toxic masculinity - if I understand the term correctly it's probably quite a big issue for teenager boys. Personally I don't feel too much pressure from society to "act like a man" and so on.

 

[warpus]

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

Yeah, if it's affecting men like that, then yeah, that's not good at all.

If it's affecting people who sexually assault others, then it's a great thing. But I suspect that most of those who are into sexual assault don't really give a damn about hashtags though

There certainly have been some male victims of assault telling their stories. Terry Crews for instance.

That's good. This sort of movement would have a lot more power if it was more inclusive. But if we pit the genders against each other, that's just not going to get us anywhere, except probably the opposite of what the movement is trying to accomplish

 

[inthesomeday]

Yeah, if it's affecting men like that, then yeah, that's not good at all.

If it's affecting people who sexually assault others, then it's a great thing. But I suspect that most of those who are into sexual assault don't really give a damn about hashtags though

It’s a bad thing for men to re evaluate their behavior and position in society?

 

[red_elk]

It’s a bad thing for men to re evaluate their behavior and position in society?

Well, yes, if there's nothing wrong with particular person's behavior and position, but he is forced to re-evaluate them, then it's not a good thing.

 

[warpus]

It’s a bad thing for men to re evaluate their behavior and position in society?

It's not a bad thing for men or women to evaluate their behaviour and position in society. Self reflection is usually a good thing.

But correct me if I'm wrong, the initial comment implied that this was forcing all men to feel bad about their behaviour, even if their behaviour wasn't bad. I don't see much good in that. It just forces good people to walk on eggshells - and potentially alter their behaviour, which was already good to begin with. It also pushes people from having these sorts of conversations, which is also not a good thing. The easier it is to discuss these topics, the better.

 

[civvver]

Nope, haven't felt any pressure or noticed any differences from any of this metoo stuff. I treat everyone pretty much the same regardless. I don't have sons, I have two very young girls so I'm not really teaching anyone how to treat a lady or what not. I do believe in traditional manners and such like holding a door open for a lady but in general I hold the door open for whoever is behind me. So I guess it doesn't make much difference.

I don't follow the online stuff that closely and it's kind of white noise now, but the one article that really got me was the one accusing aziz ansari. Fortunately a ton of people already defended him. But I am not going to raise my girls to be helpless victims in that regard. If they don't want to do something, say no and say it firmly. Men pursuing women romantically is not assault.

Sometimes I feel stuck in my life as a father and husband and not free to do what I really want financially and with my free time. But that's life, I don't think it has anything to do with what sex you are, it's just the responsibilities I choose to take on. I'm sure my wife feels trapped at times too and wishes I would be more accommodating to her at times.

 

[Ryika]

It’s a bad thing for men to re evaluate their behavior and position in society?

When it's people like you asking them with a preconceived notion that there's definitely something wrong with them, their masculinity and the way they are? When everything but complete agreement with your position is considered a failure that's met with more shaming and blaming? I'd say yeah, that's a bad thing.

The reality is, plenty of men have already spoken out about #metoo on social media, their message? There's nothing wrong with them, they're not the ones acting like that. Of course that message has been squarely ignored, and is frequently shamed on social media, because that's not what #metoo is about, it's about female victims and male victimizers. It has no space for people from the "perpetrator class" who have done nothing wrong, #metoo simply does not care about the demand for nuances they bring to the table and has instead decided to push them away in favor of a clean narrative.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think the main blocker for me is the lack of a twitter account.

I think the gist of the articles is that men are feeling an enormous amount of pressure from the movement, and it's causing them to have to re-evaluate their behaviour, if not their position in society. With women flinging sexual harassment accusations everywhere, a lot of men are understandable nervous. To the point of being shouted down when even trying to discuss issues regarding gender roles. I've actually seen a well meaning man trying to have a dialog with a couple of women only to be shrieked at and shouted down by them. Not exactly constructive discourse. This behaviour has to take a toll on men.

I honestly don't think this sort of thing is restricted to this particular hashtag campaign. I think it's more widespread than that and has been going on longer.

 

[Karpius]

It’s a bad thing for men to re evaluate their behavior and position in society?

A good man should not have to re-evaluate his behavior and position in society. A good man is already secure in himself and also has the ability to tune out the shrill screams of protest that erupt with every new movement and see more clearly into the heart of the matter. A good man can appreciate and identify the truth because a good man is already honest with himself and the world. A good man has never done the things the bad man has because a good man is always respectful of others. A good man weighs the evidence and never jumps to a conclusion of guilt or innocent no matter how popular the verdict may be. A good man doesn't need an angry mob to show him what slime is, nor will a good man ignore the pleas of a true victim.

Is that the man who needs to re-evaluate his behavior and position in society?

One last thing...a good man won't add his voice to a movement just for the sake of ratings.