Why no Black Male Leaders?

[joeycitation]

What ever they name the Era after Modern, I would like Burkina Faso & Ibrahim Traore

Man there's no way they're adding Ibrahim Traore lol. I respect the guy and deeply admire Burkina Faso but even Sankara, who I consider a genuine hero, is far too contemporary and "politically charged" for the game. And really someone as contemporary as Sankara, let alone Traore or any other 21st century figure, just does not fit the aesthetic and tone of the game that treats leaders whimsically and semi-mythologically.

I suggest Nkrumah because I think he is the closest you can get to a contemporary pan-african leader without running into the issues and while staying roughly within the games timeframe. He was deposed but not assassinated, his lasting legaces are diplomatically negotiated independence, economic and cultural development, and his affectionate title was as "the teacher" rather than a general. Ghana itself was also much more globally relevant than our current modern African civ, Buganda, both pre and post independence from British imperialism (though I do appreciate the choice of drawing attention to an interesting and less well known polity).

I do think your suggestion of having a Jamaican maroon leader is great, I would love to see that.

 

[Patine]

What ever they name the Era after Modern, I would like Burkina Faso & Ibrahim Traore

Yep, one of a dozen extra-legal West African junta leaders that even the AU suspended their memberships.

 

[Zaarin]

I remain skeptical about additional eras as I think they can only hurt the game, but if we do get additional eras we can be certain they will have no leaders from those eras, whether the new era is Contemporary or Near Future. 2K plays it very safe when it comes to potential legal or popular controversy, and no contemporary leader would be free from that, to say nothing of the legal issue of obtaining consent (and paying royalties) to use someone's likeness.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

I guess you could always play Humankind and make nearly whatever character you want.

 

[Inotrobot]

I guess you could always play Humankind and make nearly whatever character you want.

Imagine that was Firaxis' modus operandi, fans who don't like our decisions, should go play our competitors instead of making suggestions & voicing their issues lol

 

[Zaarin]

I think calling Humankind a competitor is a little overly generous...

 

[Inotrobot]

I think calling Humankind a competitor is a little overly generous...

I was being literal

 

[Zaarin]

I was being literal

I understood you. I was making a snarky comment about the quality and popularity of Humankind.

 

[Inotrobot]

Yep, one of a dozen extra-legal West African junta leaders that even the AU suspended their memberships.

Sounds fun

 

[Patine]

Sounds fun

Light sarcasm, actually, in case it wasn't apparent.

 

[bladex1200]

I would like to see Thomas Sankara, despite the fact he's contentious contemporarily I do think he's beloved enough in his home nation of Burkina Faso and harmless enough to the milquetoast liberal or conservative (nationalist who wanted to improve the lives of his people, hard to argue with that) to be included. Plus I just think he's neat.

But agreed it's a little absurd folks on here are making excuses for there not being any black male leaders in this game. Including black women doesn't preclude the need to include black men, unless you think including folks like Catherine and Victoria would then mean we could opt not to have leaders like Frederick or Napoleon, because the quota for leaders from each region would be filled. The accusation of tokenism is particularly absurd, in my view, because that would only serve to highlight the fact that putting one black male leader is an unusually-small number given the THREE French male leaders in the game.

And I say that as someone who finds the omission of Britain and over-inclusion of France on-release hilarious as a kind of historical meme.

 

[Arcaian]

I do have to say, the fact that Sankara was a Marxist revolutionary who lead a Marxist-Leninist government would likely make him more than harmless to many liberals - I think he's a fascinating figure, deserves to be better known, and would love to see how they'd design him. But I don't know if I'd say he'd not attract some controversy

 

[bladex1200]

I do have to say, the fact that Sankara was a Marxist revolutionary who lead a Marxist-Leninist government would likely make him more than harmless to many liberals - I think he's a fascinating figure, deserves to be better known, and would love to see how they'd design him. But I don't know if I'd say he'd not attract some controversy

The CIV games had both Mao and Stalin historically (Civ III and IV, respectively), probably wouldn't put them in now but it isn't like there's no precedent. Plus Sankara is generally well-regarded by Europeans as "one of the good ones" vis a vis Marxist leaders. There was a documentary like 10 years ago that featured some French and UN staff members reminiscing about Sankara and while they disagreed with his militaristic methods, none of them doubted his good heart and sincere spirit, nor the good he did do vis a vis vaccinations and building up core infrastructure and education.

 

[Patine]

The CIV games had both Mao and Stalin historically (Civ III and IV, respectively), probably wouldn't put them in now but it isn't like there's no precedent. Plus Sankara is generally well-regarded by Europeans as "one of the good ones" vis a vis Marxist leaders. There was a documentary like 10 years ago that featured some French and UN staff members reminiscing about Sankara and while they disagreed with his militaristic methods, none of them doubted his good heart and sincere spirit, nor the good he did do vis a vis vaccinations and building up core infrastructure and education.

Yes, and Civ2 had both Mao and Lenin. But those games were all made around the Turn of the 21st Century when the vast majority of their market were in First World Nations, and prior to big cultural review movements that really got going in the early 2010's.

 

[joeycitation]

I would like to see Thomas Sankara, despite the fact he's contentious contemporarily I do think he's beloved enough in his home nation of Burkina Faso and harmless enough to the milquetoast liberal or conservative (nationalist who wanted to improve the lives of his people, hard to argue with that) to be included. Plus I just think he's neat.

But agreed it's a little absurd folks on here are making excuses for there not being any black male leaders in this game. Including black women doesn't preclude the need to include black men, unless you think including folks like Catherine and Victoria would then mean we could opt not to have leaders like Frederick or Napoleon, because the quota for leaders from each region would be filled. The accusation of tokenism is particularly absurd, in my view, because that would only serve to highlight the fact that putting one black male leader is an unusually-small number given the THREE French male leaders in the game.

And I say that as someone who finds the omission of Britain and over-inclusion of France on-release hilarious as a kind of historical meme.

My issue with Sankara's inclusion is much less that he's actually all that controversial (I think a bit more than you're stating but I agree he's not all that divisive) but that he does not fit the tone at all, and that it's actually somewhat distasteful to include him in a game that is quasi-historical at best and consists of leaders duking it out in a literal clash of civilizations when he died violently within many of our lifetimes and his country is still a site of intense geopolitical confrontation. I have immense admiration for Sankara and would like to see his historical importance acknowledged internationally, but I don't think this is the appropriate format for that. And having tried to read about him and the Burkinabe revolution and needing to translate French ebooks to get good scholarship, that should probably start with better English language histories of him because it's very slim pickings rn lol.

And bare minimum, in my opinion the tonal discrepancy and the fact that he was most active at the end of the 20th century when modern age leaders are focused at LATEST on its beginning, I think are disqualifying enough without getting into propriety.

I'd put Kwame Nkrumah + modern Ghana up again as a great alternative:

-Iconic among those interested in the region and period but still "new" to a broader audience, seems to fit the devs choice of leaders for Civ7 --Early 20th century, known for globally influential Non-Aligned Movement diplomacy as well as a major influence on pan-african movement practically and culturally. Also a philosopher.
-Clear-cut Diplomacy/Cultural leader, fits a niche for modern West African representation AND a peaceful, diplo/culture based male african leader. Shaka is great and I hope he's included but would be nice to have a philosopher diplomat african leader.
-Akosombo Dam + Lake Volta is a great wonder.
-Lake Bosumtwe potential natural wonder to go along with it.
-His tenure saw development of lots of infrastructure, industry, and educational initiatives: plenty of direct involvement in nation building to draw on for mechanics
-Ghana as a modern nation could distinguish itself as a good "tall" culture/diplo late-game civ, reflecting an international influence beyond its size and population (popular destination for english speaking african diaspora, from big names like Malcolm X & WEB Dubois to black american tourists/immigrants; specific aspects of Ghanaian cultures like the Akan Adinkra runes and Kente cloth (I believe Ewe originally?) have become widely associated with a nonspecific "African" culture in general (a classic "blue jeans and rock music" success); Kofi Annan close to a household name as a Secretary General of the UN (a classic diplomatic success)

And I know Nkrumah is far from entirely uncontroversial (socialist, deposed in coup, etc) and is very late age-wise, but I think he is basically non-divisive enough to be a 20thc modern age leader (slim pickings there for people with no blood on their hands whatsoever), while still being long enough ago that he doesnt seem tonally anachronistic.

Anyway thats my pitch

 

[Krikkit1]

Part of the problem is they launched with some very poor subsaharan representation in general... (as well as South American and Oceanian)
That shows up in a poor amount of Black representation (as most blacks are from subsaharan Africa...and it's notable that only one of the two black Leaders is actually from subsaharan africa directly*)

Hopefully, they will get some more DLC for Subsaharan Africa soon.

*all of them are indirectly

 

[RedCourtJester]

Part of the problem is they launched with some very poor subsaharan representation in general... (as well as South American and Oceanian)
That shows up in a poor amount of Black representation (as most blacks are from subsaharan Africa...and it's notable that only one of the two black Leaders is actually from subsaharan africa directly*)

Hopefully, they will get some more DLC for Subsaharan Africa soon.

*all of them are indirectly

I am fully expecting, at minimum, a Swahili civ to connect Aksum to Buganda, and Fumo Liyongo is a very natural fit for that path.

In addition to the usual suspects people are mentioning: Mansa, Shaka, Menelik/Haile, Touissaint.

I do have to agree with OP that the roster really missed on African representation at launch. With as many leaders as it does have, and a whopping two from Southeast Asia alone, I would have at least preferred we get two Latin American and two SS African leaders to match (and I would say a Polynesian leader as well if we didn't have reason to believe that is coming very soon).

 

[Henri Christophe]

I was out for while and seems someone took my place in the agenda for fighting for black people.

 

[Patine]

I was out for while and seems someone took my place in the agenda for fighting for black people.

Well, there's two Black female leaders, and three (I think) predominantly Black nations.

 

[GeneralZIft]

I was out for while and seems someone took my place in the agenda for fighting for black people.

Yea I was actually wondering where you were since this is usually your topic
Nice to see you again in the threads