Why no Black Male Leaders?

[Inotrobot]

To be honest I don't think saying there are more men than women playing Civ7 is a good argument for why there should be more male black leaders as opposed to female black leaders.

However, you can deduce by common sense that there are more men playing 4X games specifically than women. It's probably not a 90/10 split but it's at least a 60/40 split if we are all being honest.

So that said, why do the black male leaders number Zero to Three to the black female leaders?
If we're being fair there should be at least one, and there are MANY good options. Mansa Musa, Shaka, Haile and so on.

Perhaps the controversy comes because the black female leaders could be considered three 'mediocre' choices (i.e. not top leader choices) BUT there is not one single black male leader under any category, significant, or otherwise.

I think it's understanding your audience. I'm old enough to remember the popular era of "Barbie" & Dolls. Growing up, Barbie commercials aired every 15 minutes, & rarely did they highlight Ken or Male Dolls, they understood the surrogate nature of play, & the differences between sexes.

Also where do you get the idea of a 60/40 split in Male to Female Demographic?

 

[GeneralZIft]

I think it's understanding your audience. I'm old enough to remember the popular era of "Barbie" & Dolls. Growing up, Barbie commercials aired every 15 minutes, & rarely did they highlight Ken or Male Dolls, they understood the surrogate nature of play, & the differences between sexes.

Also where do you get the idea of a 60/40 split in Male to Female Demographic?

I'm not saying it's 60/40, or 90/10, we don't really have evidence for any of them - but I'm saying that the bias is definitely male, even if we don't how much. And if so, let's take the conservative ratio (60/40) as opposed to the potentially inaccurate extremer ratio (90/10).

Long story short, even considering it conservatively, it's still a massive under-representation for black men. And that sucks because black men make up some really good leaders.

 

[TheGrayFox]

I couldn't care less how America categorize its immigrant populations ; that categorization has non-existant relevance to anyone outside the US. Which is the vast majority of the people in the world ; the vast majority of black people in the world ; the vast majority of East Asian people in the world, the vast majority of South Asian people in the world (etc), and, most importantly, the vast majority of Leaders in Civ.

US classifications are profoundly irrelevant here, and do not reflect global demographics.

Well Firaxis probably does care considering the US market for Civilization and video games in general is much larger than Africa or Southeast asia and the vast majority of the world outside of China

well that and the fact that Firaxis is a US company

 

[bonafide11]

Well I sure hope they add Shaka Zulu to it. He's always been my favorite leader across the series.

 

[Inotrobot]

Well I sure hope they add Shaka Zulu to it. He's always been my favorite leader across the series.

Prince Naquan/Cudjoe of The Maroons
Shaka
Sundieta
Haitian Rev: Toussaint or Dessaline

(In order) All sound interesting to me

 

[Henri Christophe]

Well I sure hope they add Shaka Zulu to it. He's always been my favorite leader across the series.

Shaka is in the game since civ1, but in civ6 he came up after some upgrades.
He is also one of the my favorites in the game, I need to admit I just discover Shaka's history after played this game, but after that, I become a fan of him.
DO you know, Netflix has a cool serie about him who was made around 1980.

I think Haile Selassie former Emperor of Ethiopia would make an excellent civ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haile_Selassie

A cool option too, Haile Selassie is considered God to some people in Jamaica know as Rastafari. People as Bob Marley died because his believes in live God Haile Selassie.
But Ethiopia is pretty rich in history and is possible to found another names, I guess civ6 had Menelik II, who defeat Italians in the battle of Adwa in a event we know as Scramble of Africa. Another amazing name to the spot



I used to had a thread just to list potencial leaders, but become so old and attractive to trolls then that was closed.

 

[Henri Christophe]

That's a bit hyperbolic!

I just found the list of leaders in this web site: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Leaders_(Civ7)
And I agree that there are a real vaccum of black people. I found Amina from Shongai/Buganda (I don't understand that also, I thought Buganda was very far away from Shongai)
Harriet Tubman, who I don't know nothing yet, but seems to be a black american women.
And was that, I found two black womens and none black man.

Very unballanced as ever, I was here since civ5 allerting how unballanced this game was, but the community never listen to me (!)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And I agree that there are a real vaccum of black people. I found Amina from Shongai/Buganda (I don't understand that also, I thought Buganda was very far away from Shongai)

Leaders in Civ VII are not associated with civilizations. Amina is Hausa but you can have her lead Rome if you want to. The game just associates her with Songhai and Buganda because they are both from Africa.

Harriet Tubman, who I don't know nothing yet, but seems to be a black american women.
And was that, I found two black womens and none black man.

Very unballanced as ever, I was here since civ5 allerting how unballanced this game was, but the community never listen to me (!)

She is. You got your wish for a black leader from the Americas.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Amina is Hausa but you can have her lead Rome if you want to.

So now I finally can start with Rome and end as Turkey, Austria or Russia?
That's cool, as I saw in the link I send, it's seem to Rome don't have any nation attached to they.

She is. You got your wish for a black leader from the Americas.

That's a cool milestone of the game, the first black american was a women (!)
But far from enought

 

[Sagax]

So now I finally can start with Rome and end as Turkey, Austria or Russia?
That's cool, as I saw in the link I send, it's seem to Rome don't have any nation attached to they.

Depends on what you mean by “attached”. Each early era civ includes a default unlock for civs in the future era. By playing as Rome, you gain access to Norman, Spain, America, France, and Prussia. Other paths open up based on your leader choice or things you do during the game.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Depends on what you mean by “attached”. Each early era civ includes a default unlock for civs in the future era. By playing as Rome, you gain access to Norman, Spain, America, France, and Prussia. Other paths open up based on your leader choice or things you do during the game.

Thanks for the explanation, I not play this new game yet. I just noticed it's mechanic changes a lot

 

[Patine]

considered God to some people

This is more a strike against a leader to me, regardless of who they are or where they came from. It was also irresponsible of Haile Selassie to encourage it, as his own personal religion (and the state religion of Ethiopia) considered such a notion heresy and apotheosis.

but the community never listen to me (!)

The community did listen to you on a fair number of suggestions. But, the ones that were way out there, or attempted to enact erasure of other non-Black non-White peoples' own cultures and identities to contrive them as being, "Black," due to just a single leader or defaulting to an obsolete definition of races by a German scientist who was racist, or other such leaps of logic, did get criticized, yes.

 

[tman2000]

Even if that's the thought, why do we have to take Turns with Black People? You can't do that with anyone else.. Do you know the Hell that would have been Raised if this game had no White Men, In a Male Dominated Industry?

Everybody else has Male Characters, to the point they are not asking for representation of the group, but particular Regions & Countries.. I mean technically I can make an argument for Ibn Battuta, but that's "Technically".

So not only do I have to wait 7 months to "Build Something, I believe in", I don't know if I'll get it in October.. Anyway I don't wanna be labeled as a Complainer, just saying I'm disappointed..

It sucks that Songhai returned but not Askia. Lol his tomb is in the game though.

Zazzau was literally was one of the biggest slavers and probably a lot of black American men today can thank Amina for how their ancestors were brought across the Atlantic.

Cancel Amina for being a supporter of the African slave trade to America, restore Askia. I love Askia by the way because of how he frequently shows up in Civ 5 with the entire world burning behind him and he's like "Sup ur cool, let's be friends."

 

[Henri Christophe]

The community did listen to you on a fair number of suggestions. But, the ones that were way out there, or attempted to enact erasure of other non-Black non-White peoples' own cultures and identities to contrive them as being, "Black," due to just a single leader or defaulting to an obsolete definition of races by a German scientist who was racist, or other such leaps of logic, did get criticized, yes.

At least I'm happy you do remember all argues I used before and I don't need to say they again.

 

[Evie]

It sucks that Songhai returned but not Askia. Lol his tomb is in the game though.

Zazzau was literally was one of the biggest slavers and probably a lot of black American men today can thank Amina for how their ancestors were brought across the Atlantic.

Cancel Amina for being a supporter of the African slave trade to America, restore Askia. I love Askia by the way because of how he frequently shows up in Civ 5 with the entire world burning behind him and he's like "Sup ur cool, let's be friends."

It's true that Zazzau was a major slave trade market, but like all Sahel states, it was oriented on the Trans-Saharan trade, not trade with the coast - the bulk of their slaves went north to Katsina and Kano and onward into the Sahara. Somethign Zazzau was hardly unique about: moving slaves through the Sahara was a lucrative business for *all* the Sahel trade empires, and Songhai was not particularly different.

On the other hand, to pretend that either Zazzau or Songhai had any meaningful direct involvement with the European slave traders who came to the coast to the south is a humongous stretch of history. At most they (like...a lot of other African states at the time) sold and traded slaves among themselves, that eventually wound up being slave of the coastal states, who were the ones to actually trade them to the Trans-Atlantic slave trade.

(And if we assume America to mean United States, as is the meaning in English, both Askia AND Amina were dead by 1619 when the first slaves to be brought to the English colonies of the American east coast arrived in Virginia, so there's also the trifling question of blaming someone for something that happened while they weren't even alive)

 

[Patine]

It's true that Zazzau was a major slave trade market, but like all Sahel states, it was oriented on the Trans-Saharan trade, not trade with the coast - the bulk of their slaves went north to Katsina and Kano and onward into the Sahara. Somethign Zazzau was hardly unique about: moving slaves through the Sahara was a lucrative business for *all* the Sahel trade empires, and Songhai was not particularly different.

On the other hand, to pretend that either Zazzau or Songhai had any meaningful direct involvement with the European slave traders who came to the coast to the south is a humongous stretch of history. At most they (like...a lot of other African states at the time) sold and traded slaves among themselves, that eventually wound up being slave of the coastal states, who were the ones to actually trade them to the Trans-Atlantic slave trade.

(And if we assume America to mean United States, as is the meaning in English, both Askia AND Amina were dead by 1619 when the first slaves to be brought to the English colonies of the American east coast arrived in Virginia, so there's also the trifling question of blaming someone for something that happened while they weren't even alive)

The longer-standing Sahelian tradition of slavery - which led to them considering the human beings they bought and sold to each other, and Europeans, just as dehumanized property as the ivory, gold, and pepper they sold, and as the Europeans viewed the slaves. ALL forms of slavery are repugnant and acceptable and cannot, with any sense of morality, justice, or humanity, be viewed differently by degrees or scope.

 

[Evie]

The point was a response to a specific accusation that Anina was directly responsible for the arrival of many black men (apparently, not black women tho..) in America. Not comparative moral weighing of forms of slavery.

I even quoted the relevant post In my reply you jumped on.

Do try to keep up.

 

[LilBudyWizer]

I don't think historical significance has much relevance. It's more what would be their definition and how does it fit into the roster. If you put Shaka in then who do you take out? It isn't obviously a black woman, it's the leader with the most similar attributes and bonuses. It is first and foremost a game.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I don't think historical significance has much relevance. It's more what would be their definition and how does it fit into the roster. If you put Shaka in then who do you take out? It isn't obviously a black woman, it's the leader with the most similar attributes and bonuses. It is first and foremost a game.

Well thankfully the leaders were given some dimension, between the typings and the mementos, that it is a lot easier to differentiate leaders who might be mechanically similar. Especially leaders who aren't just boring "monarchs who were militaristic, or patrons of the arts/sciences."

I think if Buganda doesn't get a leader (fairly likely), Shaka's odds are quite good. There aren't any other Sub-Saharan leaders who are strong contenders, let alone modern African militaristic leaders. Amina is probably the closest, and she was still differentiated as an "economic" leader. I especially think that certain leaders and civs would benefit from a seventh "defensive" typing, which Shaka would be a prime candidate for if/when it happens.

And as for militaristic/defensive leaders generally, the only candidates I think really competing for a similar niche will be Sepe Tiaraju/Lautaro (already well-differentiated from Shaka in VI) and Toussaint Louverture (I feel his odds went down a bit after Harriet Tubman). Maybe Yagan, although aboriginal Australia has plenty of other figures they could select from.

 

[LilBudyWizer]

Overall I just don't see the game having much to do with history. I'm playing the same leader for thousands of years, often starting thousands of years before they were born. You might as well be sticking historical figures into Balder's Gate.

It does serve as a shout out and I have no objection to that. Maybe in the future they could have a character generator like RPG's. I want to play me. Born on a mountain, raised in a cave, partying and rocking is all that I crave.