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Why no hitler, stalin, churchill, or mouslini?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by doug2134, Dec 19, 2005.

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  1. Roxinante

    Roxinante Warlord

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    I suppose I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, since Hitler only held sway for ~15 years (including the years where the National Socialists werent a major force in German politics), and since the Americans/Allies has an American general as their leader, the Brits have Monty, it makes some sense that the Desert Fox should command the Germans.
    It just seems that in computer games, theres an attempt to sweep away the nasty bits of the Third Reich for fear of offending - Silent Hunter II never showed a swastica, even though the only side you could play was the Kriegsmarine. But you cant flinch from fascism, because thats one of the ways that it bred in Germany. Glossing over the truth, looking away, that was how the nazis took power - and with computer games you have a large number of young players who only see the surface of the issue. The nazis become a cartoon, two dimensional badguys who only know how to say "schnell!" Sometimes you get the impression that maybe things werent that bad, really. Maybe the nazis werent as bad as they're made to be - and that starts to chip away the reality of how genuinely evil they really were.
    If you're someone like me, you'll do the research, you'll take a look at the evidence of brutality, and when you go hunting in Call of Duty, you hope to see the twin lightning strike in your crosshairs, you hope to find that black uniform on the business end of your Thompson. How many people do the research, though? I worry that dumbing down nazis makes them merely images on a computer, to be killed or played without concideration that once they were real, once they razed a whole continent and once they tried to obliterate an entire people.
     
  2. MattJek

    MattJek King

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    Roxinante: So are you saying that Nazis in games are a good thing or a bad thing??
     
  3. Panda

    Panda Metal head

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    I agree with you, it makes little sense. The morality of why one leader who had millions butchered is acceptable and another not escapes me. [Please refrain yourselves from threadjacking to debate this, it has been done ample times on CFC.] I can't see the facts of the cruelity of the Third Reich dissappearing through gaming, though. If it does then through incompetent teachers.
     
  4. Bain

    Bain Chieftain

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    I'm pretty sure if you could pick Hitler as your civ leader the game would be outlawed here.
     
  5. henrycccc

    henrycccc Warlord

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    this over-political correctness is just foolish. Firaxis is saying Hitler had less of an impact on germany than Frederick....bullcrap.
     
  6. Roxinante

    Roxinante Warlord

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    Well...thats a very good question.

    Ok, look at Castle Wolfenstein - it was an FPS that was about killing people. It was ok because they were nazis. But it never really said why it was ok to kill nazis, and was therefore as pointless as Doom. Now, you could say the same things about CounterStrike - you're the Ts or you're the CTs. Its like a football game with military grade weapons. But 'terrorist' is about as vague as what it replaced; 'anarchist'. There are politics behind terrorism, but its not defined, its not a single, overridding philosophy, like the Nazis.
    I think if you're going to have Nazis in a game, you should have some history behind them. How about a multimedia file that comes with Call of Duty that talks about the missions - why was it a big deal to find and destroy V2 rockets? Was Stalingrad really that bad? Who were the SS?
    Usually the best you'll find is specs on the Tiger or the rate of fire for the Mg 34 - thats not history, thats trivia. Civ does a very good job of looking at history, and giving cliffnotes on thousands of years of history - is there any documentation on North Africa? Why it was important? Who was Erwin Rommel and what is he known for? I honestly dont know if it does, I already know who Erwin Rommel was, what he did, and how he died. I wonder, though, how many of the younger civ players can say the same?
     
  7. Bain

    Bain Chieftain

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    You couldn't have possibly made a more ignorant remark, tommyboy.
    I bet the only sentence in German you know is "Spitfires sind besser als Messerschmidt", huh? Thanks to The Sun.
     
  8. SPQR300

    SPQR300 Deity

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    I think they just didn't want to risk adding these people, but I really don't know why. At least there would have been some scandal, and free-advertisement for the game. Like the hot coffee mod in GTA, Making a game where you can play with Hitler or Stalin and the nazis isn't illegal, it's just politically incorrect. Maybe they don't include Hitler in the German version, but in other countries it would have rose the sales, people would have been talking about it etc...
    I don't know if you could understand me ^^, my English suxx :)
     
  9. Panda

    Panda Metal head

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    AFAIK, all lof Europe has the same version.
     
  10. Roxinante

    Roxinante Warlord

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    I am particularly fond of his wit:

    Lady Astor "Mr. Churchill, if you were my husband, I would put poison in your tea."
    Chruchill "And if you were my wife, I would drink it!"

    Bessie Braddock "You are drunk Sir Winston, you are disgustingly drunk."
    Chruchill "Yes, Mrs. Braddock, I am drunk. But you, Mrs. Braddock are ugly, and disgustingly fat. But, tomorrow morning, I, Winston Churchill will be sober.
     
  11. Kolyana

    Kolyana Czarina

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    He was a great man and - I believe - captured much of the spirit of Great Britain. If he were in the game, I'd play him almost exclusively!
     
  12. ceiph

    ceiph Chieftain

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    firaxis has a poll of leaders to add to game churchhill, stalin and lenon are all in there, hitler no for obvious reasons, and well theres no italian empire so mousolini no
     
  13. DemonDeLuxe

    DemonDeLuxe Warlord

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    More or less. He could be included as a "historical personality", as long as there's no danger of gloryfying him or his ideology (where "gloryfiyng" begins with "showing it as one among several acceptable options"). So, just having him on the same level as queen Victoria and Bismarck would obviously be a "no". Having him appear at the "Dan Quayle" spot in the ranking would be simply politically incorrect (PROBABLY outlawed), and having him as a natural ingredient in a WW2 campaign would be a thing of historical accuracy, if done correctly. Having nazi emblems just for the "fun" of the atmosphere (like they did in the secret levels of Doom2) is definitely out of bounds since it's considered respectless towards his victims (rightly so, IMHO).

    Basically, game developers should avoid any chance that people identify with the guy or like him in any way or just "toy around" with nazi stuff. This, of course, makes it more or less mandatory to leave him out in a game that is to be sold over here.
     
  14. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    There are also legal issues involved. Images of Hitler along with Nazi symbols are prohibited by law in Germany and other countries.
     
  15. ibcoltscrew

    ibcoltscrew Prince

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    It's sad that we can't play with the WW1 and WW2 leader. I love History and all but i think our WW1 & WW2 leader should ALL be in the game. The problem is that Civilization need more than one leader in a game... i mean, each civilization should change leader every xx turn (just like in real life) or when you got a new tech for exemple (communist,etc). Each leader should get their Policy and even better, with Democracy, the people should vote (random vote) between two party (with two very different leader) and then you have to deal with this policy and act in function of your people choice... If they vote for a WAR Party then you have to start a war to make your people happy...
    I just think civilization could be better with the Leader, the Political Party and Religion. I think the religion play the most important role in the world just because most of people have faith in something (whatever it is, it's something) Religion exist since the world exist, its a fact... after the religion, it's the governement (or a group of Rich man - same things). Firaxis should put more attention in the Political side of Civ4. My opinion tho
     
  16. Napo981

    Napo981 ***ernEmperor

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    Really interesting point of view.

    Another well-known game did take the side of nazis. I'm talking about PanzerGeneral. For the more young, PanzerGeneral is the first of the popular 5-stars geneal serie that were fantastic TBS games. If you like the war dimension of civ and can handle 2-D graphics (that are still not too bad), this serie is for you.

    For violence and "things of the real life" in games, do you prefer ultra-violent games such as GrandTheftAuto?
     
  17. Overlag

    Overlag Prince

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    Why are Fasicists not great people?
     
  18. doug2134

    doug2134 Chieftain

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    I was mearly saying that hitler stalin and Mousolini (sp) dont deserve to be in the game beacuse of there great deeds, beacuse they opressed and killed there own people, but beacause of their impact on the world. Thanks for all the responses by the way.
     
  19. Overlag

    Overlag Prince

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    they also developed there poor countries into supper powers that could have controled the whole world......
     
  20. Covert22

    Covert22 Chieftain

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    The case for them would be more "modern" agressive civs and leaders...


    Stalin would make a great agressive user of State Property and Hitler woul dmake the same for Police State. Right now we have too many boring rulers who use Hereditary Rule until 1980.

    I think that is the intelligence in the argument anyway.
     
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