Why no infantry UU

[auntjemima]

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering what the community thoughts were about why no civ possesses a UU based off of infantry. I know its a late unit and often games are decided before it comes into heavy use but in games that do make it that far its often the workhorse of most modern armys until tanks become common.

I mean the navy seal and the panzer both come later in the tech tree so I don't think its an issue of being a late tech enabled unit. Just wondering what the others though considering nearly every other unit as a UU vairiant except the "pinnacle units" (modern armor, mobile art, mech inf and other units that generally can't be upgraded farther)

Barring the 2 civs that have water based UUs you have

Warrior = Quecha
Axe = Vulture, phalnax, dog soldier
spear = holkan, impi
sword = gallic, jags, praets
archer = skirmisher, bowman
Longbow =
crossbow = chu-ko-nu
mace = zerkers, samurai
pikes = landshnecks
muskets = oromos, musketeers
chariots = immortals, war chariots
horse archers = numidian cav, kesik
war elephants = ballista elephants
knights = cataphracts
currassiers = conquistadors
cavalry = cossacks
rifles = redcoats
Infantry =
marine = navy seal
tank = panzer

I may have forgot some but the the interesting point (for me) is that only longbows and infantry are semi-common units that have no any UU counterparts, the communities thoughts? Perhaps you have some suggestions as to what civ and traits you'd make and infantry UU out of given the choice or the desire to mod.

 

[r_rolo1]

Probably because both are hard nuts to tacke as city defenders by themselfes ( that is , without major softening ), they are used as normal city defenders and they don't have any direct counter at their age while inside cities ( especially infantry: war in infantry age at tech parity and against a competent oponent is a major carnage and can be only be sucessful with #s )...

 

[plasmacannon]

I think that those units are the common equalizing units of their time.
It (the game) is saying that by the time Longbows are invented, pretty much everyone could use them relatively equally, so, there is no one empire with a huge advantage there.
The same with Infantry. It is the general military unit for all empires and relatively equal and there will be alot of them.
If you were to to make (for example) the Navy Seals replace Infantry, the unit would be all too common everywhere, instead of the rare specialized unit that it is.
The same if you wanted to exchange the UU of another empire, say Russia's Cossacks, and make the Infantry a Spetzna.
They shouldn't be most of your forces, there are just not that many of "the Best" of an empire.
Infantry is your army. The common soldier with a machinegun. Whether it is an AK-47 or a M16 makes relatively little difference in game terms.
Not to mention, that many countries use the same guns nowadays, that it will do the same damage in anyone's hands.

I was hoping for an American Gunslinger unit replacing their Curissier. Something that could be used alittle earlier.
A Gatling gun to take down riflemen, replacing the Grenadier. I don't remember Americans ever using Grenadiers.
And maybe, a leader like Andrew Jackson (AGG/IMP).

 

[Paw]

What civ would you give a unique infantry UU to?

Infantry from the period of civ4 looks like it's based on a ww2 infantry man. Infantry in that time period was all pretty much, more or less the same, except for small elite units that various countries had, but no country had unique infantry in such numbers that you could really justify using it as a replacement for the common infantry.

 

[Sonereal]

What civ would you give a unique infantry UU to?

Infantry from the period of civ4 looks like it's based on a ww2 infantry man. Infantry in that time period was all pretty much, more or less the same, except for small elite units that various countries had, but no country had unique infantry in such numbers that you could really justify using it as a replacement for the common infantry.

Waffen SS?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Waffen SS?

That did NOT represent the overwhelming majority or even majority of its army.

Every country had/has elite special forces units: SAS, Spetsnaz, Rangers, etc. None of these run around on the front lines in war constantly acting like normal infantry, and none of them are used as a sole/primary combat option stock force.

In gameplay terms, the longbow is an unbelievably annoying defender, capable of matching the power of units an era ahead unless they have siege help. A longbow UU would make the already-difficult medieval period even worse for war, and that's not useful.

Infantry are already super flexible, and hold no hard OFFENSIVE counters, ever (modern armor does pretty well though). They trounce everything from a previous era with ease, defeat marines/paras which come later than them, have a bonus that helps make them more cost effective against their direct upgrade (!), and hold their own with most units in the game on defensive terrain. Machine guns, which do effectively counter them, can't attack them .

If one dominates the skies or seas infantry with support can beat pretty much anything, which is pretty strong for the basic foot troop of the early late game. Even a minor UU bonus would make them pretty scary.

 

[Jerrymander]

Waffen SS?

Sure, if Firaxis wanted to be assaulted with lawsuits.

 

[Ian Kognitow]

What civ would you give a unique infantry UU to?

Infantry from the period of civ4 looks like it's based on a ww2 infantry man. Infantry in that time period was all pretty much, more or less the same, except for small elite units that various countries had, but no country had unique infantry in such numbers that you could really justify using it as a replacement for the common infantry.

I take the infantry unit to correspond more closely to WWI infantry, in which case a worthwhile UU could be made out of a German Stormtrooper. It would be more useful than the usually disliked Panzer and perhaps its advantages could be something like the SEAL -- added first strikes+March

 

[Darth Caesar]

I take the infantry unit to correspond more closely to WWI infantry, in which case a worthwhile UU could be made out of a German Stormtrooper. It would be more useful than the usually disliked Panzer and perhaps its advantages could be something like the SEAL -- added first strikes+March

Awsome stormtroopers, soon I will rule the galaxy!!!

 

[pi-r8]

I think the main reason there's no infantry UU is not gameplay, but politics, and especially the name. Which civ would you give the UU to? Which country has ever fought a war where their basic infantry really distinguished themselves as being much better than that of another country? For the most part basic infantry is pretty much the same.

The only example I can think of is Germany during WW1, which managed to fight against Russia, France, and England all at the same time with very little help from it's allies. It's infantry had a reputation for building by far the best trenches of any side, and having very good organization. So it would be fair to give Germany an infantry-based UU.

However, what would you call it? Names like Wehrmacht, Stormtrooper, and especially Waffen SS are only going to make people think of WW2 and the holocaust. Of course Panzer also makes people think of WW2 (despite the fact that it's simply the german word for a tank), but the panzer units were always busy fighting actual battles, so they have a good connotation, whereas the german infantry of WW2 is remembered only for the holocaust.

So basically, I don't think there's any civ that you could really give an infantry UU except Germany, and I don't see any way to make a German infantry UU that wouldn't make people think of the holocaust.

 

[Ian Kognitow]

I think the main reason there's no infantry UU is not gameplay, but politics, and especially the name. Which civ would you give the UU to?

The only example I can think of is Germany during WW1, which managed to fight against Russia, France, and England all at the same time with very little help from it's allies.

However, what would you call it? Names like Wehrmacht, Stormtrooper, and especially Waffen SS are only going to make people think of WW2 and the holocaust.

Well, 'stormtrooper' usually is more associated with WWI (even the entry in wikipedia pretty much talks exclusively about stormtroopers in relation to that war). But, I suppose, they could be given the more generic name of 'Shock Troops' or 'Shock Infantry'.

 

[pi-r8]

Well, 'stormtrooper' usually is more associated with WWI (even the entry in wikipedia pretty much talks exclusively about stormtroopers in relation to that war). But, I suppose, they could be given the more generic name of 'Shock Troops' or 'Shock Infantry'.

Technically that might be true, but I think for most people "stormtrooper" makes people think WWII more than anything. "Shock Troops" sounds like the opposite of an elite unit... more like disposable soldiers that you send in first to absorb the opening salvo, because they're so bad that you don't care if they die.

 

[Sonereal]

That did NOT represent the overwhelming majority or even majority of its army.

The same way Navy SEALs=/=marines?

Every country had/has elite special forces units: SAS, Spetsnaz, Rangers, etc. None of these run around on the front lines in war constantly acting like normal infantry, and none of them are used as a sole/primary combat option stock force.

Using my Navy Seal example but taking it to the extreme, I'm just going to point out there were 38 divisions (divisions normally numbering between 10k to 30k). That's 38,000 units.

Compared to the ~2400 Navy SEALS.

Sure, if Firaxis wanted to be assaulted with lawsuits.

Whose going to sue? How could someone sue?

Point is is that the Waffen SS makes more sense as an infantry replacement for Germany than Navy SEALs does for marines for America.

 

[babar]

Give the Germans two-move Infantry for the Blitzkrieg! That should make up for all the years they've had the Panzer. Naming them shouldn't be too hard: just call them "War Infantry", in the style of the Egyptian UU.

 

[Toaae]

America could use them. Call them "G.I.s".

 

[TheMeInTeam]

America could use them. Call them "G.I.s".

Complete with firing colored lasers at the enemy .

 

[Jerrymander]

Whose going to sue? How could someone sue?

Point is is that the Waffen SS makes more sense as an infantry replacement for Germany than Navy SEALs does for marines for America.

Maybe because the SS were the secret police of the Nazi regime.

Maybe.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The same way Navy SEALs=/=marines?



Using my Navy Seal example but taking it to the extreme, I'm just going to point out there were 38 divisions (divisions normally numbering between 10k to 30k). That's 38,000 units.

Compared to the ~2400 Navy SEALS.




Whose going to sue? How could someone sue?

Point is is that the Waffen SS makes more sense as an infantry replacement for Germany than Navy SEALs does for marines for America.

Frankly, I don't think SEALS should be in the game either. I'd much rather see a musket with reduced whip/draft anger or even a clunker UU like an ironclad (making them useful outside of seafood-parking in a cannon war would be hilarious). Even a settler UU would make more sense (bringing up the westward expansion days by giving settlers some kind of minimal STR + ability to easily defeat animals).

SEALs are a bad fit. They're late, and it's kind of silly to mass them. The presence of one nonsense UU doesn't help build a case for another. I'd rather just see the SEAL pulled.

 

[j_mie6]

my first mod has a infrantry UU lol

(he is way to overpowered)

I did think why don't they have english longbows instead of redcoats?
I would think that the longbows were more iconic because of their achievments in the 100 years war?

 

[CornPlanter]

Well in that case:

Persian Immortals were elite unit consisting of 10,000 men.
Praetorian Guard was elite unit consisting of ~9000 men
Keshigs were elite imperial guard of around 10,000 men too.

I could continue this list... but there's no point in doing it. Nearly every unique unit name came from elite historical units. Nearly none of them were replacement for bulk regular army like chariots, swordsmen, spearmen, etc. With some exceptions.