Why not to take Authority 1 always?

CrazyG

Deity
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OK, but if you have eg.: 100 per turn culture by that time its only 20 turns not counting barb kills. You maybe wont get that much if you stick to Auth, but picking another one immediately after Auth 1 could do the trick. I don't see how is +1 civic so taxing. At most it delays your progress by -1 civic at midgame or late game. But maybe having a -1 civic at late game a big deal since you delay ideology pick? Don't know. But in the early game even on Diety I can keep pace on civic count with others until sometime renaissance when they start running away. And if I don't pick it I'm already behind them in ancient era.
20 turns is a long time. This is a really interesting question because a detailed answer needs some math. The 1 civic costs a lot because of how social policy costs scale. Policies 1 through 4 combined cost at least 565 culture, while the 5th policy costs at least 520. That is a lot of barbarian kills.
Here's an older thread about this (exact numbers may be off cause its old: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...la-for-determining-social-policy-cost.657988/ )

If your goal is to reach 5 total social policies as quickly as possible, then starting with authority 1 will be faster. However, if your goal is to reach a specific social policy, you'll find that starting with authority slows you down a lot. Reaching specific policies should be your goal, as the mid and late game social policies are really powerful compared to just 1 hammer per city in authority.

I've tried mixing tradition/progress with authority before, and it notably hurts your science. It takes longer to reach tradition's scientist or progress's 3 per city connection (even if you don't have city connections yet, 3 in the capital is a big boost).
 

Solidirio

Chieftain
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Jun 4, 2022
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I pick my ideologies depending on what kind of victory im leaning more for in the late game, i usually pick Order or Authority if i see there is a chance i can use my military power for a domination victory. If i see that scenario too distant (usually because ive got more power in other areas) i just go for freedom
 

bitula

Prince
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
476
20 turns is a long time. This is a really interesting question because a detailed answer needs some math. The 1 civic costs a lot because of how social policy costs scale. Policies 1 through 4 combined cost at least 565 culture, while the 5th policy costs at least 520. That is a lot of barbarian kills.
Here's an older thread about this (exact numbers may be off cause its old: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...la-for-determining-social-policy-cost.657988/ )

If your goal is to reach 5 total social policies as quickly as possible, then starting with authority 1 will be faster. However, if your goal is to reach a specific social policy, you'll find that starting with authority slows you down a lot. Reaching specific policies should be your goal, as the mid and late game social policies are really powerful compared to just 1 hammer per city in authority.

I've tried mixing tradition/progress with authority before, and it notably hurts your science. It takes longer to reach tradition's scientist or progress's 3 per city connection (even if you don't have city connections yet, 3 in the capital is a big boost).
Yes I agree completely. I did try not taking auth 1. So with Auth 1: In the middle-late game it will delay late civic finishers and ideologies, I know. But on the other hand in the early-mid game you lag behind severely on Deity (not just 1 civic) and that can screw up your game. I would say that with a small army and peaceful play there is no point picking it of course. But on Deity there is no point in having a small army, most of the time you get attacked and decimated. Moving barb camp alarm to Auth 2-3 could be a solution, because if you don't know where they are you wont get the benefits. But OK, I can't really prove that early loss is is not compensated by later gains, just an impression based on my games.
 

cidk2000

Warlord
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May 24, 2022
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looking at the original formula has anything changed in 2 years? its felt slower taking authority 1 and then completing progress/tradition and in my cheiftian games I never see the AI take one and switch between. On huge maps and less players it can be argued it may be worth taking IF perhaps you have a Terrain/lux and religion based Culture to get you to catch up later but im not a player to use a calculator (when its clearly looking like I should) I take a path from begining and stick to it if its tall its artistry/tradition if wide progress/fealty if i change its usually due to happiness constraints mid game or I dont go wide enough. I've never won vox populi domination its the only victory condition ive never won.
 

GreekIrish

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
78
I have only gone authority first and transitioned into another tree when I played The Celts or The Aztecs.
 

beginner_

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
76
That is a lot of barbarian kills.
But it counts also for killing AI units scaling with unit strength. I have never tried it but when going domination and all out war killing 5-10 units a turn, it adds up quickly.
 

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
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Dec 31, 2005
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I do feel that the tradition opener can make a big difference in obtaining Stonehenge/Pyramids or not, if a couple of goes in it.
If you are doing a "proper" stonehenge/pyramid rush with the right terrain, tradition saves you a turn (usually from 27 turns to 26, or maybe 26 to 25 if you are on the knifes edge). If you're getting more than that, its because you were doing a suboptimal rush in the first place ;)
 

Stalker0

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Messages
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But it counts also for killing AI units scaling with unit strength. I have never tried it but when going domination and all out war killing 5-10 units a turn, it adds up quickly.
wait....10 units a TURN! That's a crazy amount of killing, I would need a war spanning the globe for me to get that many kills in a single turn. I could maybe pull it off in a crazy naval battle or something.
 

beginner_

Chieftain
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Mar 10, 2020
Messages
76
wait....10 units a TURN! That's a crazy amount of killing, I would need a war spanning the globe for me to get that many kills in a single turn. I could maybe pull it off in a crazy naval battle or something.
Ok, fair enough. I'm not exactly counting but 5 isn't really special, 2-3 ships and 2-3 land units. (obviously when you are already ahead tech-wise so you can get 2 shot kills)
 

suriv

Chieftain
Joined
May 12, 2018
Messages
55
I've tried mixing tradition/progress with authority before, and it notably hurts your science. It takes longer to reach tradition's scientist or progress's 3 per city connection (even if you don't have city connections yet, 3 in the capital is a big boost).
I have mixed this several times (on deity, peaceful no attack play) and I think the answer one way or other is not definite. Some civs have stronger science than culture and some others have it the other way and some are neutral. For strong culture civs, Tradition opener + Progress Opener + Rest of tradition helps get techs quicker than plain traditions rush. The benefits are not easy to calculate as terrain/quest yields also get bonus with earlier tech unlock. The only trouble is if we can build sankore in time or not. For progress/authority mix, it is more straightforward as there isn't a must needed wonder. If I have aggressive neighbors then authority opener makes up (especially if I can also get terracotta to go with it). Tradition/authority is not a good mix unless we are playing on marathon and large maps.
 

CrazyG

Deity
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I have mixed this several times (on deity, peaceful no attack play) and I think the answer one way or other is not definite. Some civs have stronger science than culture and some others have it the other way and some are neutral. For strong culture civs, Tradition opener + Progress Opener + Rest of tradition helps get techs quicker than plain traditions rush. The benefits are not easy to calculate as terrain/quest yields also get bonus with earlier tech unlock. The only trouble is if we can build sankore in time or not. For progress/authority mix, it is more straightforward as there isn't a must needed wonder. If I have aggressive neighbors then authority opener makes up (especially if I can also get terracotta to go with it). Tradition/authority is not a good mix unless we are playing on marathon and large maps.
Tradition + Progress opener is interesting but you end up trading a lot of yields for that early science. I wouldn't claim its never worth it but I'm skeptical its a common occurance. The 5th tradition policy and tradition finisher are so powerful that I find it hard to justify delaying them.
 

suriv

Chieftain
Joined
May 12, 2018
Messages
55
Tradition + Progress opener is interesting but you end up trading a lot of yields for that early science. I wouldn't claim its never worth it but I'm skeptical its a common occurance. The 5th tradition policy and tradition finisher are so powerful that I find it hard to justify delaying them.
Yup .. not always. But I have been experimenting a lot with working specialists early vs later. More or less I think we catchup by Renaissance due to larger capital. So we are not missing out much. I tried with Ethiopia, Maya, Gandhi for 150 - 200 turns on multiple attempts. Turns out growing capital first net you few more wonders and the ability to work more slots .. to compensate for not working them earlier.

Milaes youtube video have few plays trying the same (though he almost always wars)
 

Deljade

Prince
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Jun 24, 2019
Messages
312
The slower the game speed, the better Authority is. I play on epic with raging barbs too, but still feel Authority falls off sometimes. I think it's fine. Maybe playing on Marathon tips the scale for you?
 

bitula

Prince
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
476
The slower the game speed, the better Authority is. I play on epic with raging barbs too, but still feel Authority falls off sometimes. I think it's fine. Maybe playing on Marathon tips the scale for you?
Yes Marathon + Huge Map. I just checked in my latest game that the culture bonus from destroying camps even seems to scales with era (I get 100 culture after 50) - the unit kill I think scales only with CS but not era. I really see no reason not to take it always on these settings. I like get to the next policy in 3-5 turns, and that on marathon... The third, fourth is again very fast (much faster than with pure tradition), then it starts to slow down, but still significant contributor until like late medieval. Maybe culture bonus should be reduced/increased based on speed and map size, but I would rather just move camp alarm or culture growth from Auth 1 to Auth 2, could be a fix for all settings. Just my impression.

Edit: thing is that when a camp is like more than 10 turns away on the other side of a continent you would think not to go for it. But you should, because while you are going for it most likely an additional camp will spawn close to your route and so on and so on and I'm just chaining the culture bonuses. This requires you to invest in units, but on Deity you need to do it anyway, to avoid being attacked. So Deity as setting could be important here also.
 
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