Why razing enemy cities reduces my stability?

[rmontaruli]

But the current ruins event is exactly that.

This mod is a neverending surprise!

What is the advantage to settle a new city on ruins?

 

[Ani Taneen]

It be great if the ruins could store some data about the cities underneath (like the world wonders that were built)

What is the advantage to settle a new city on ruins?

I'd argue that it should be easier to build walls, castles, and temples if the city ruins can remember those buildings being built.

 

[Leoreth]

It be great if the ruins could store some data about the cities underneath (like the world wonders that were built)

I thought the same, but there is no currently existing mechanism to do so.

 

[1SDANi]

I thought the same, but there is no currently existing mechanism to do so.

Is it not possible to do that with a variable? I'd imagine you just store the tile coords and the Buildings and whenever a function needs to check what buildings the ruins contains it looks at the variable with matching coords.

Is that not possible within the DLL?

EDIT: Oh! Just noticed the phrase "currently existing", then I assume that means the above would be too time consuming and be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Leoreth]

Correct. I'm sure I could implement a way of doing so but for now I won't be able to devote the effort.

 

[Ani Taneen]

So maybe a flat +1 on a ruin tile, that bonus increases with certain techs (like literature and latter academic research), university gives a +2 bonus to the tiles, and the museum gives a +2 bonus to the tile.
The museum is a building that provides culture and gold in a city based on the wonders already built in the city.
The great artist's culture bomb leaves a wonder on the city called a great work. That building provides & when a museum is in the city.

 

[1SDANi]

So maybe a flat +1 on a ruin tile, that bonus increases with certain techs (like literature and latter academic research), university gives a +2 bonus to the tiles, and the museum gives a +2 bonus to the tile.
The museum is a building that provides culture and gold in a city based on the wonders already built in the city.
The great artist's culture bomb leaves a wonder on the city called a great work. That building provides & when a museum is in the city.

So basically event bonuses are left on the tile when the city is destroyed, and when the ruins are removed the event bonuses are removed? Would that work @Leoreth?

 

[Leoreth]

If I were to code it?

 

[1SDANi]

If I were to code it?

Oops, I meant would that be more doable?

 

[Rodnok]

Do you really want to give any advantages for razing cities?

 

[Ogi123]

Returning to topic of thread I somewhat agree that razing cities punishes player to much, -2 to stability per population razed is to severe. I would change it to -1, because otherwise it's always "operation starvation" time...

 

[cmakk1012]

Returning to topic of thread I somewhat agree that razing cities punishes player to much, -2 to stability per population razed is to severe. I would change it to -1, because otherwise it's always "operation starvation" time...

Hmmmm, I wonder if there could be some way of quickly instituting a blockade? Instead of having to manually put troops on every farm some way of “sieging” a city once you’ve got an army next to it? Then “operation starvation” would be less complex, at least?

 

[Leoreth]

If I could forbid deliberately starving cities people want to raze I would. This kind of talk just makes me want to remove the raze button-

 

[1SDANi]

If I could forbid deliberately starving cities people want to raze I would. This kind of talk just makes me want to remove the raze button-

Or maybe make Raze Instability based on Culture Level?

 

[Ani Taneen]

Maybe a blockade ability for great generals and units with the leadership upgrade?

 

[ozqar]

Maybe ruins should be a terrain feature instead of a pseudo improvement, that would give many advantages out of the box:
- you could still build improvements on top of it, so you're not forced to remove it just because you want to make use of the land
- I could give additional production for removing it, I think that makes a lot of sense because many cities and wonders were built by using stone etc. from nearby ruins. For example many buildings in Cairo were built using the shiny outer shell of the Pyramids
- this is not really feature related but ruins also could have like +1 base production to reflect a more gradual use as a quarry
- it's possible to give buildings additional specialists with improvements, so a museum could give +1 specialist per ruin in city radius
- likewise happiness is another option if we want

Downside:
- ruins cannot coexist with other terrain features then. Since cities usually also can't, that is generally fine. The only exceptions in floodplains.

If I make ruins compatible with most improvements (except maybe Farms and Plantations), this should encourage keeping ruins in the game for longer, which I think is more realistic. Later in the game you can then use Museums, or maybe even Hotels to get additional advantages for keeping them. Or you remove them for the additional production.

I'm a big fan of all of this. I'd understand ruins and forests not being compatible, but ruins under rainforests is a cool thing! So I'd say not to worry about this, and make them compatible (if technically possible) with all other features (floodplains and such), also with farms (can't see why you wouldn't farm around them). I like the idea of them having a +1 hammer, in which case they could also have a -1 food to make up for the lost arable space.

Can I ask, if we do this, it would be very nice to make all razed cities that had wonders become either ruins you can't remove or ruins that provide +1 culture/gold. Alternatively, a pop-up that at least tells players that "this ruins contain an ancient wonder" when they're trying to remove would be useful. The point of all this would be keep the wonder ruins there for museums later on to exploit them

I'm not playing version 1.15 yet (waiting for the release), so I haven't seen hotels and museums, and how they actually work in the game. But is it (or can it be) like a museum will give additional culture per ruins in city radio and even more when the ruins contain the ruins of a wonder? And how do hotels work? Do they give gold based on culture level or culture output of a city?

 

[Leoreth]

If I make ruins a feature like described in the quoted post, they cannot coexist with jungles or floodplains. There can always be only one feature per tile, that's the choice to make.

And I would like to persist information about city culture and wonders in ruins, but as discussed above that would require additional effort that I do not want to invest right away.

Museums can be built by great artists and give additional GP rate per culture level. Hotels are a late game building that gives additional trade route yield per culture level. Here is a feature list for 1.15 if you're interested.

 

[1SDANi]

If I make ruins a feature like described in the quoted post, they cannot coexist with jungles or floodplains. There can always be only one feature per tile, that's the choice to make.

And I would like to persist information about city culture and wonders in ruins, but as discussed above that would require additional effort that I do not want to invest right away.

Museums can be built by great artists and give additional GP rate per culture level. Hotels are a late game building that gives additional trade route yield per culture level. Here is a feature list for 1.15 if you're interested.

So I'm guessing a Forest Ruins tile is out of the question?

 

[Leoreth]

Right now it would be possible. But then the other things I have mentioned wouldn't.

 

[Ogi123]

If I could forbid deliberately starving cities people want to raze I would. This kind of talk just makes me want to remove the raze button-

Then AI settling patterns needs to be improved. Because frankly now I need to raze cities, otherwise I'm stuck with cluttered garbage "cities" that only drain my treasury via maintenance and contribute nothing to my empire.
Two solutions: buildings can be constructed if appropriate terrain is in city radius. So all those one title from coast cities can build harbours, wharfs and lighthouses. Similarly city one title away from river can build levee.
Secondary: perhaps split city maintenance in three parts - number, distance and size? This way number of cities will have less impact.