1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Why Republic and Democracy?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by silver 2039, Oct 29, 2003.

  1. silver 2039

    silver 2039 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2003
    Messages:
    16,208
    I have noticed that most players that play on the higer levels tend to switch to Republic and Democracy. Why? I play on the Cheftian to Warlord level and I usually stay in Monarchy. I know in Demeocracy and Republic you get some commerce bonous but wouldnt that be cancled out because you have to pay suppport for your units? There is also war weriness in both forms of government while there is none in monarchy. In monarchy you also get support for free units. The workers do work slower than in democracy but once you get replacebal parts that shouldnt be a problem. Courroption in monarchy can also be taken care of by a well placed FP and police statons and i'm not sure but I believe courthouses as well. From the way I see it monarchy has more advantges than republic or democracy. That may be because I usually play on the lower levels but I want to know what you think. ( I am also usually a warmonger in my games so it differs in playing styles)
     
  2. Spike59

    Spike59 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    Hansville WA
    At a certain point, you get quite a big advantage by going to republic. I have also found that if you go too early it actually hurts you gold position. Depending on the size of your army and how much gold your producing you can actually lose gold by switching from monarchy due to the upkeep of your forces. Also switching to republic can cause some of your citizens to become unhappy due to war weariness.

    Having said (written?) all that, it is definitely worth switching to republic as soon as you can. The economic benefits, and therefore scientific benefits, are enormous. Many times when I first switch to republic I am putting a lower percentage of income to science but am still researching at a faster rate because there is so much more gold coming in.

    Since I have been a war monger lately, I find that I do not switch to democracy that much. It seems that the war weariness outweighs the economic benefits and the increased speed of the workers. If I am at peace (a rare phenomenon) I switch to democracy as soon as possible.
     
  3. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2001
    Messages:
    7,768
    Location:
    Amish Country, Wisconsin, USA
    Yes, it does depend on playing styles. If you like to wage non-stop war for hundreds or thousands of years, use slow-moving units, and get quite a few casualties, then Monarchy is better.

    The free units isn't much of a benefit at all, unless you use ICS and have 100's of cities. In monarchy you get 2 free units for towns and 4 free units for cities. That is only 4 gold for each city that you are saving. Republic/democracy make basically double the gold as monarchy which is easily more than 4 gold/city. The one extra gold that every tile produces in republic/democracy is also being multiplied by banks/marketplaces (for tax), and by libraries/universities (for science).

    Even if you have to turn up your luxury rate a little bit, or science down a little bit, you are still putting more into science and making more money. 20% luxury rate in rep/dem is just about the same as 40% in monarchy. 60% science in rep/dem is just about the same, if not better than 100% science in monarchy.

    Players use short wars (kill the enemy quickly or take as many cities as quickly as possible and then sign peace) to use those governments. Using fast troops allows you to have to spend less time in enemy territory (and allowing troops to survive by retreating) to lessen the war weariness. Keeping casualties to a minimum, Republics can go a long time before war weariness gets really bad.

    Military police in monarchy is a good thing, but you burn up your 'free unit support' by trying to maximize the military police potential.
     
  4. smackster

    smackster SGOTM

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,858
    Location:
    Boston, USA, ex-pat
    The gain in commerce that both Republic and Democracy gets over Monarchy is easily enough to offset any loss of gold to unit support and even war weariness. Also you get unparrelelled research rates in both.

    The AI is restricted in Chietain to Warlord such that you might be able to win in Despotism, but in the stronger levels its rare that you can stay in Monarchy and win.

    A good check to see how well you are doing in Monarchy is to see if you can get 4 turn research paths for each technology in the Industrial age. Play a game with a religious civ and swap between them I think you'll be suprised at the difference.

    As for war weariness, you generally just need to have a few luxuries, build marketplaces, and cathedrals in the large cities and slide the luxury slider if it gets bad. You should still get more gold and science than in Monarchy.

    There are cases where very good players have not left Monarchy and won by domination, but they usually win early enough and get a lead early enough that they can do this.

    Smackster.
     
  5. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2001
    Messages:
    7,768
    Location:
    Amish Country, Wisconsin, USA
    Winning via a domination/conquest by staying in monarchy isn't that hard even on the higher levels. Staying in monarchy and winning by spaceship/UN is definitely more of a challenge.
     
  6. FenrysWulf

    FenrysWulf Evil Norse Wolf

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    373
    Location:
    Naperville, IL
    You can get the best of both worlds by doing what I did, which is editing the rules so that war weariness is turned off in republic and democracy. Then there is no drawback. Some people don't like to change the rules though, so it's up to you.

    Incidentally, I notice no one talks about communism. The few times I've tried it, it always seems to make things worse. Does anyone use communism?
     
  7. Black Waltz

    Black Waltz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2002
    Messages:
    569
    Well you could all do what I do and make Depotism the uber Government and give 10 food per square, etc, etc...

    No offence. But we're not talking about using the editor as a cheat mode here. :p
     
  8. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    27,779
    Location:
    Not on your side
    The AI.

    In CivII, I loved Communism. Needless to say, I was an unrepentant warmonger!

    But in CivIII, Communism just sucks. The corruption in your core cities is a killer, and combined with no commerce bonus you can kiss your scientific effort goodbye.

    IMHO, Republic is the best gov't overall. Democracy is can be better in peaceful conditions, and Monarchy during especially long and bloody wars, but if you switch to Republic ASAP and stay there for the rest of the game you'll never be far wrong (always war games excluded!). Communism should be avoided at all costs, and returning to Despotism is unthinkable.
     
  9. steviejay

    steviejay Now in Black and White!!

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Messages:
    3,343
    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    silver I used to think exactly like you, when I was playing on Warlord and even Regent I never strayed away from Monarchy but then I started reading the stories and tales and I saw that all the really top class players like Bamspeedy and Betazed went to Republic ASAP and...... well go read some of their games to find out. On my Monarch games I switched to Republic as an experiement and I'm currently 2 for 2 which is REALLY cool. I'm now a fully converted Republican. I'm also a warmonger which can cause problems but I'm working on it.

    I'm not exactly sure of the bonus's but I do know that on the higher levels where you need mega amounts of gold to trade for techs, Republic is a good bet.

    I've never tried Democracy yet....... I might try in my next game
     
  10. USC

    USC Unity Scout Chopper

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    Czech Banana Republic
    On the higher levels especially, there is, however, a problem in war during Rep/Dem where if you don't close any alliances, your intended victim may close alliances with everyone against you (not necessarily creating a military threat, but often it does, and at the least you'll be out of the trading loop until you gradually shatter the alliances with peace treaties based on your strength/obsequience), and if you close preventive alliances, you are binding yourself to stay at war for 20 turns or take a rep hit. I still find preventive alliances the better option unless it seems my victim doesn't have enough goodies to offer would-be allies. I solve the problem with the war's length using the techniques mentioned in the posts above and by utterly destroying the victim (de facto ending the war) or only actually FIGHTING until I've achieved my objectives, then merely refusing to close a peace treaty.
     
  11. PRIMEMOVER

    PRIMEMOVER Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Colorado
    I really think it depends on your goals, objectives, etc. and with what civ you play...if you're playing to score points, you want to increase happiness as soon as possible and obviously grab territory, all components of a high score. Therefore, moving up to at least Republic is necessary to achieve maximum happiness (as compared with Monarch or Depo...) and productivity, not to mention increased wealth (provided you don't have a huge military unit base).

    Based on my own experience with China, in which I'm frequently at war, I like the flexibility that the Republic offers in the way of maximizing happiness and thereby increasing production, wealth, etc., all needed to support my massive military-industry complex that I try to build into the Modern Age...

    The trick is, and I think this goes to the heart of the question, is how to go to war in a republic or democracy. There's a specific article that talks about this in the War Academy I'm pretty sure. But I've waged very successful wars (long ones too) at the Regent level based on these simple concepts:

    1) TIMING...once my industrial complex is at full-steam...helped to a great extent by an early switch to Republic...I'm able to go into a War readiness mode. I don't think of starting anything militarily until I've reached this point. Sure I could do it in Monarch, but it takes much longer and if I'm playing for points, the earlier I can gain a happy pop and maintain it, the better.

    2) LUXURIES...If you have a strong base of luxuries, you can use that later on in Republic or Democracy to ease the war weariness that is sure to come when war is declared. After I've started or found myself defending in a war, if I have the cash (generated through the help of the Republic) I can ease back on research (20-40%) and turn up the luxuries (20-50%) I can easily retain a positive cash flow while fighting a war and having a contented population

    3) CASH...You have to make hay early in the game, building up your cash reserves (Wall St. ASAP, trading for GPT, etc. ) so that you can 1) support a large military 2) trade luxuries for tax dollars when you need to keep your pop happy during war.

    I find that for myself (a moderate warmonger) Republic strikes a good balance between getting the increased production from Monarch and the increased war weariness of a Democracy.If you're not inclined to use your military to this extent, or if you're not going for points, I think you can get away with avoiding Republic or Democracy. But always be mindful of your opponents, especially the aggressive ones who WILL use their military and always do so from Republic or Democracy!
     
  12. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2001
    Messages:
    7,768
    Location:
    Amish Country, Wisconsin, USA
    I agree with most of your points, Primemover, but I don't understand where you get the idea that republics have more happiness than monarchies.

    Territory is by FAR more important to your score than happy people.

    I actually prefer to stay in Monarchy, set science to 0%, luxury to wherever I need it so that it is the most cost-effective and then just beat techs out of the AI.
     
  13. Crow T Robot

    Crow T Robot Minister of Hedonism

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    171

    Seems a situational decision, to me.

    If you KNOW a war will be a ong one for one reason or another, switching to it as a step to war prep can help. Later if/when the enemy fall into anarchy, you can take advantage.

    Or when nearing or at the end of one war, someone else declares war it seems a decided advantage in a succession of wars.

    Yes science and commerce suffer under it, but as a wartime gov simply to survive and/or win the war(s), it can work.
     
  14. apparition

    apparition Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Messages:
    262
    Location:
    Rotorua, NZ
    democracy + industrious/commercial = :-D

    gotta love that worker speed.

    I've also found that under democracy, my production can be so high that I can quickly build an overwhelming military force

    1 or 2 turn modern armour and 3 turn nukes.
     
  15. Armorydave

    Armorydave Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Baltimore, Maryland
    It seems like I am the exception but I always shoot stragiht for Monarchy to start the game (Cer. Burial, Mysticism, Polytheism) regardless of the Nation I am playing. I then stay in Monarchy until I get to Republic (but I do not B-line to Republic like I do Monarchy) at which time I switch if not at war (or playing a game where ware is extremely common).

    Democracy and Communism are situational governments for me, after about 500 AD I spend 95%+ of my time in a Republic. I cannot imagine trying to ride out a Monarchy into the modern era at the higher play levels. The benefits of being a Rebublic are enormous especially in the later ages.
     

Share This Page