Why so much unhappiness for the Freedom ideology?

poom3619

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You all really shouldn't try and defend this stupid system.

Why? As a culture player, or someone who like having a lot of culture/tourism, or someone who know how to play BNW. I like it!

(One should become happier if he or she gets upper hand in ideology game)
 

Gabriel Pyyrhic

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This is just ridiculous. I find it laughable that just beacuse I'm the only freedom ideology, my citizens would "want" to have an oppressive ideology instead? Cmon now, this is just dumb. I get hit suddenly with -50 or more unhappiness when I am outnumbered. Give me a break! What a horrible design choice. There was not a majority opinion in America that they should turn to Communism like the USSR. This has ruined the game for me.

Actually its not Dumb, do your really think that at the height of Communism all of Soviet Russia was yearning for Capitalism ? Or that every Nazi secretly coveted being an American ?

Want another example ? Last time I checked North Koreans are not all wanting to embrace the West ??

Whatever ideology a person embraces they generally fail to see the strengths of other ideologies or the weakness of their own.
 

Vidszhite

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Here's how you fix your problem: stop sucking at culture. It's not optional anymore.

Here's how to not suck at culture: build writer/artist/musician guilds, then make sure at least one city can hold a great work. When a GWAM pops, create great work. Done! If you have -60, it's because you did none of the above.

Don't forget that Order in an ideal world is a working man's paradise, so perhaps their nation IS a workers paradise, and freedom to your people looks like a rich man's world that is oppressive to the masses. Also don't forget that the word Socialism used to be considered a good thing irl, and that Iraq didn't want Freedom when America "liberated" them, they wanted Autocracy, just with a different guy in charge. Saudi Arabia even today is Autocracy. Now you understand the importance of culture, and why the mechanics make perfect sense.
 

VainoValkea

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Culture isn't even the only way to defend against that unhappiness.

Get more happiness for yourself, or thwack the culture bully away from the face of the earth. Get Freedom as a world ideology in the WC. Failing those, you can still change ideologies.
 

Autoclave

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people are asking why would a citizen of a freedom state want order or autocracy. You are looking at the problem from your american/eurpean biased perspective.

Take the actual Russia for example (i was born in USSR by the way), all that personal freedom means nothing for the common russian man if the economy of the country is not in a good shape. People don't care about liberty, freedom of press personal rights when they don't have what to eat. Most of the people would prefer a strong autocractic leader if that would mean better standards of living.

You just have to understand the mentality of many people living in not-so-democratic states. Order is a viable preference for them.

(this was just an example, i am not necessarily implying anything about actual Russia).
 

adecoy95

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This is just ridiculous. I find it laughable that just beacuse I'm the only freedom ideology, my citizens would "want" to have an oppressive ideology instead? Cmon now, this is just dumb. I get hit suddenly with -50 or more unhappiness when I am outnumbered. Give me a break! What a horrible design choice. There was not a majority opinion in America that they should turn to Communism like the USSR. This has ruined the game for me.

your not the only one, i have never had a game yet were i was able to stop the unhappiness from spreading, no matter how much i focus on culture or tourism
 

VainoValkea

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Then you should play lower difficulty levels until you learn to understand and use the ideology unhappiness. There are a ton of good counters.
 

bouncymischa

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Ive got a similar issue. Playing as poland, i was the first to build 3 factories, so i chose the freedom ideology for the spaceparts buying. Assyria, my direct neighbour went order 10 tuns later. Now they have the highest tourism output, so i understand i have the negative unhappines from it. (especially cause morocco took order too)

The strange thing is, assyria has -11 unhappines in total (i still have around 40). So basicly my people go "we wanna be like that miserable and unhappy bunch over there". Where is the logic in that?

Obviously the tourists that visit Assyria don't tour the slums and factory towns and all those unpleasant, unhappy places. Instead they get to see elegant museums filled with Assyrian carvings, libraries with ancient stone tablets, and the zoos where benevolent Ashurbanipal raises his lions, and read about how all these beautiful and wonderful things are the product of the hard workers and orderly society of Assyria. Don't you wish your Poland was as wonderful, instead of a state of elitist haves exploiting the have-nots, spending all their money on sci-fi spaceships? :3
 

bob massingbird

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If you have enough culture, you can easily reap 150++ more happiness with Freedom, due to some of its tenet like +1 happiness for bank, stock exchange, watermill, hospital and -50% unhappiness from specialist.

SO what you did do wrong is that you have to small culture, that was insufficient to resist pressure form other civs that have differing ideology than you.
 

adecoy95

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Then you should play lower difficulty levels until you learn to understand and use the ideology unhappiness. There are a ton of good counters.

just played a game were i was pushing 450 culture a turn, and had almost 200 tourism, was still getting pressed by the 5 others who later chose order, nothing works once it starts

digged up ruins, focused on culture, pressed my religion around, carefully managed trade routes, sent around diplomats, nothing changes anything, its always the same story every game
 

That Other Guy

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Evidently other people manage. Could you post a save so people can offer specific feedback instead of generic platitudes?
 
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This is just ridiculous. I find it laughable that just beacuse I'm the only freedom ideology, my citizens would "want" to have an oppressive ideology instead? Cmon now, this is just dumb. I get hit suddenly with -50 or more unhappiness when I am outnumbered. Give me a break! What a horrible design choice. There was not a majority opinion in America that they should turn to Communism like the USSR. This has ruined the game for me.

Don't forget that Communism in theory offers some great incentives for the people, so if you lived in a 'freedom' society, but consumed communist culture, you too would probably crave that system of living.
 
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Evidently other people manage. Could you post a save so people can offer specific feedback instead of generic platitudes?

adecoy has been spoiling thread after thread with this, TOG.

Apparently he doesn't want to adjust to the new reality of BNW. There's a simple fix for that, of course. ;)
 

VainoValkea

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Don't forget that Communism in theory offers some great incentives for the people, so if you lived in a 'freedom' society, but consumed communist culture, you too would probably crave that system of living.

This indeed. Freedom-like systems may fail to meet their noble ideas in real life as well as Order-like communistic societies. Gerrymandering, political corruption, income differences, political elitism, bureaucracy, two-party system...
 

Dragonmaster83

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just played a game were i was pushing 450 culture a turn, and had almost 200 tourism, was still getting pressed by the 5 others who later chose order, nothing works once it starts

digged up ruins, focused on culture, pressed my religion around, carefully managed trade routes, sent around diplomats, nothing changes anything, its always the same story every game

If you waited to long then yes, your going to be behind the 8 ball. And any culture victory civ will put unhappiness towards you as if your not going for a culture victory, then prob be familiar with them meaning that they will influence you by 1 or 2 points.

And there are counters to ideological unhappiness. First there are several happiness tenants now. Dont live so close to the 0 happiness line. 2nd, propose your ideology as the world ideology. Its 2 influence points in your favor. Now if the other ideologies are the world ideology, then yes, your gonna have issues unless you adapt since thats an automatic 2 points against you.

Unhappines from ideological choices are not hard to manage and im playing at the emperor/immortal levels. Very wide empires suffer more from the unhappiness. Dont keep every city if you go wide. Conquer the influential civs exerting all the pressure on you. Its a good system and shouln't be gotten rid of. Its a nice additional method of "war" for peaceful gameplay.
 

Vidszhite

Ya Girl Juniper & Friends
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just played a game were i was pushing 450 culture a turn, and had almost 200 tourism, was still getting pressed by the 5 others who later chose order, nothing works once it starts

digged up ruins, focused on culture, pressed my religion around, carefully managed trade routes, sent around diplomats, nothing changes anything, its always the same story every game

That's when you fire up the tanks. Why do you think America and the USSR hated each other so much? They didn't want their people falling under the spell of an opposing ideology.
 

adecoy95

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Apr 12, 2008
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That's when you fire up the tanks. Why do you think America and the USSR hated each other so much? They didn't want their people falling under the spell of an opposing ideology.

really tho, if it gets to the point were i have to march across the whole world just to try and get my happiness back (without switching ideologies ofc), something seems wrong, especially considering i thought i was doing pretty good with culture


also i always always go ghandi wide, so sudden unhappiness like this is a huge gamebreaking deal for me

here is a save (its multiplayer)
 

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VainoValkea

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adecoy95, there are tons of different ways for dealing with ideology unhappiness. If you seriously have that much trouble with it, learn to play.
 
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