Why the Luchuirp world spell can create an early advantage in the right circunstances

[Horatius]

Luchuirp whiners and non-believers away from this thread!



First I wanted to write about how one can get a decent size army of fireballing golems in good timing, but that's too much work.
So, instead I'll bore you and talk about a strat that is under the nose. The strat is mostly useful against high difficulty AIs and other humans in certain conditions.

Anyways, yesterday I started a game with these settings:



On this starting position:



A good start, although it isn't really necessary to be of this quality. The point is that you have a start to go mining first.

So, I built a mud golem right away growing to close to 4 pop. Got some money from exploring, my scout fog busted NW close to the ocean until it eventually died and my warrior stayed in the city.
With Tholal's mod on diety, you don't really want to meet anybody for as long as you can. Early peace pts are nothing. As soon as you meet somebody, you'll be considered a target since you're so weak in comparison (although the AI doesn't really evaluate power properly later on anyway...). Looking far and wide from the mirror of heaven is refused here. Also the warrior stays in the city because it seems to me that the AI is a little bit more likely to early insta-declare if the city is spotted being empty or barely fortified.

Continuing, I worked the gold, got a few warriors.
Tech?
Mining revealed copper near by for a second city, so it makes perfect sense to research Mansory right away. Especially in a Pangea map with a good production capital.

Mansory is finished? Hit world spell.
We go Agri>Exploration while building a settler.

What else? We research Construction and build more warriors and improvements.
Then, as soon as Construction is done, we start a siege workshop in the capital and move towards mysticism.

God King is imposed and at the same time we bulb Bronze Working with the engineer that appears from the GPP.
Catapults are produced and we research Calendar and half of Education before maintenance is too high in preparation to go towards code of laws with the future conquered cities. Because that's what is going to happen: easy war.

As we know, nothing is more cost effective than boring bronze warriors. The faster you can get them the better; and if you can get catapults just as fast... Well, then you're in early rush heaven (or one of them).

And so, at turn 86, we make our move:



Sayonara, silly AI with humongous bonuses!
Here's an abbreviated message for you: N.O. C.H.A.N.C.E.
We even nailed Orthus there (although it costed me a few warriors).


That's a considerable stack for this turn. The decision for catapult production didn't sacrifice bronze warrior numbers (important) and tech situation is perfectly fine.
Without the world spell, at this timing you would either have construction with an weak army (plain warriors) or a small-not-cost-effective-slow army (golems), or have bronze working without catapults (simple bronze warriors on diety without backup do not work as well as in other difficulty levels, though).
Here you have one of the best early combinations. Considerably fast.
Bad fighting rolls cannot stop you.

At other difficulty levels you may wish to simply spam more warriors. So, instead of construction you can go right away towards mysticism to use god king for a fast spam, if you so wish. Maybe even research KoE to get an adept for enchanted blade. And bulldoze your way through with numbers. After all, reinforcements arrive faster with double hill move.


- The point of all this is the following: you can get numbers and tech (catapults and bronze weapons, I mean) at this particular early timing, while others either get tech or numbers. You can spam warriors until research is zero and still bulb BW.
That's something.


Sometimes you can research mansory first, like with a wine start. You already have crafting, so you may not need another worker tech right away. Also the first mud golem takes a while and then again you may need more warriors first anyway at the particular circunstances.
Further on, if you hit the jackpot with copper near your capital and there's someone close by...

Conclusions:
- No civ can gather and rush a big stack of bronze warriors as fast as Luchuirp without sacrificing tech progression;
- No civ can get both BW and Construction as fast as Luchuirp;
- Few civs can defend as well against early diety AI rushes as the Luchuirp.

Final thought:
- Alexis is a good choice to execute this rush for the Luchuirp because of both AGG and PHI traits.

 

[doktarr]

Interesting stuff, Horatius. This, in a roundabout way, this is an answer the question I asked you a couple times in the worldspell thread: do you think the Luchuirp are an above-average civ on high levels as it stands?

Of course, this doesn't really address the question of whether the Luchuirp should be able to move hammers around easily. This is simply making the point that using the worldspell when the question is moot can be a strong play.

 

[Horatius]

Interesting stuff, Horatius. This, in a roundabout way, this is an answer the question I asked you a couple times in the worldspell thread: do you think the Luchuirp are an above-average civ on high levels as it stands?

There are stronger civs overall and I prefer others. But being able to get BW early on can be very useful on diety, that's for sure.

Of course, this doesn't really address the question of whether the Luchuirp should be able to move hammers around easily. This is simply making the point that using the worldspell when the question is moot can be a strong play.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of that particular question when I wrote this.

 

[Calavente]

so ?
getting an early GE is useful.
it's true that getting 2 gold and bronze nearby helped with it, without you could have had BW, but not construction.
so you "only" showed that you could, at turn 86 get bronze warriors and axes UU (and catapults). well other civs get bronze warriors and axe UU at that same time too.

I still think that the WS is not strong enough when balancing it with the other perks of the civ....
perks that you didn't use at all: golems;.. and golems, and no ranger, and no HA, and no upgrade of the melee line... oh, and slow moving golems again.

do not think I'm criticising you... I really liker your demonstration and I learned a lot.
further now I know that luirchip are in fact a rusher civ... and not a builder civ as earlier thought. they are able to build the most powerful early rush.

but waiting 4 cities before casting the spell would hamper that rush... so being able to move all 4 hammers into one city would be a good compensation for missing the rush opportunity no ?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah I read this earlier but seeing as I appear to be reference at the start thought id leave it for a while.
Two gold+incense+river corn is more then good in my books - not wanting to criticise it on those grounds as that is a rather grey area in simming starts, but think its definitely worth remembering. (On which note - why not settle 1E? I know you were trying to show the power of a luchirp mining start, but its still a strong tile that you're missing.

I also think your degrading the speed at which another Civ would take this start - as you notes another Civ would build a worker faster, and thus grow onto improved tiles faster, research faster etc.
Especially say a hippus start that settled 1e would be able to go the traditional calender route, use incense to research crafting and mining, and then have a faster snowball overall due to earlier improved tiles.

I also don't get why you say they can stand off a bad military roll - they can't defeat early war (lets say pre T50) war against rising immortal/deity any better then any other Civ, and the advantage you're purporting (fast bronze working) is very subjective and depends greatly on the situation.

This also isn't relevant to the WS (though I do appreciate that you were raising it as an entirely different point), I would still say that the disadvantages of holding off on that equate the advantages of gaining a concentrated benefit (especially with the loss of units).

That said I'm now interested in how this would play out as a different Civ - could you post the save so I can see how tasunke (or whoever) fares?

 

[Horatius]

so ?
getting an early GE is useful.
it's true that getting 2 gold and bronze nearby helped with it, without you could have had BW, but not construction.

Two gold, or two river dye... whatever... you always want some commerce resources to start with.
Get this: I had construction, agri, explo, ancient chants, mysticism, calendar and half of education. Of course I have construction even with less commerce....

I just picked the first mining start that I rolled. Remind me to roll a worse start to make a point next time.

so you "only" showed that you could, at turn 86 get bronze warriors and axes UU (and catapults). well other civs get bronze warriors and axe UU at that same time too.

Thank you, mister obvious.

but waiting 4 cities before casting the spell would hamper that rush... so being able to move all 4 hammers into one city would be a good compensation for missing the rush opportunity no ?

I'm not talking anything about if the WS should be changed or not in that post.

(On which note - why not settle 1E? I know you were trying to show the power of a luchirp mining start, but its still a strong tile that you're missing.

Because of the oasis. There's a point to the start. I didn't need calendar for this rush and one city doesn't have to grab every resource.

I also think your degrading the speed at which another Civ would take this start - as you notes another Civ would build a worker faster, and thus grow onto improved tiles faster, research faster etc.

No, I'm not. You can't get BW and construction at the same time with anybody else (and that's what I'm talking about, not just teching fast normally towards other routes), be it at turn 86 or 95, it doesn't matter. Get the point?

Btw, you read diagonally, don't you?

Especially say a hippus start that settled 1e would be able to go the traditional calender route, use incense to research crafting and mining, and then have a faster snowball overall due to earlier improved tiles.

Could another civ do well with this start? Of course it could (hippus? duh!). When did I say they couldn't?
This was about what Luchuirp can do in relation to fast BW/construction.

I also don't get why you say they can stand off a bad military roll - they can't defeat early war (lets say pre T50) war against rising immortal/deity any better then any other Civ, and the advantage you're purporting (fast bronze working) is very subjective and depends greatly on the situation.

Eeerr... nop... it's not subjective. I won't even bother...

That said I'm now interested in how this would play out as a different Civ - could you post the save so I can see how tasunke (or whoever) fares?

I don't give a sh*t. You kind of make me look in general like I'm trying to say that the Luchuirp are better overall than the assumed best or something. That's obviously not it at all, so cut it. It's silly to argue about this in a game that's unbalanced from the most inner bone.
I just like to make things that are assumed inferior work somehow instead of whining and insisting this and that about it.

Also, I just wanted to say that the Luchuirp can do this, with most mining or wine starts, not just this start.
I'm sure a couple of players will realize how this can change their games with Luchuirp by putting it into practice.

Look, I wanted some players to learn something.
Guys that are sure of themselves don't need to learn. So why bother?

 

[Calavente]

you seemed to take my comment very bad..
how to say it.
there is a discussion currently on luirchip being weaker and the WS being nerf being a nerf on a weak civ.
you start a post saying "Luchuirp whiners and non-believers away from this thread!"
which makes a reference to this thread.

so DO NOT react so strongly when people are trying to link your thread with the current discussion. either positively, like I said: using your strat as an argument that nerfing the spell is wrong as using it early is so interesting as you just showed so there is no incentive to use it late.. unless one can cumulate the Eng in a city.

actually I love luirchips but I'm happy I never play MP so I'm never steamrolled when playing Luirchips. I also do not play so aggressively.

then you say I"m mister obvious.

and I'm happy you noticed.. my comments aimed to be obvious.
however I don't like the way you bark at me like that about it so there:

your own demonstration is also a huge very clever strrategy to obtain obvious results.
-using the luirchip WS early grants you an early GE which is huge--> obvious.
-getting bronze-warriors early is huge --> obvious
-getting bronze axe early is huge --> obvious
-having a 2gold start is huge--> obvious

so what is the advantage of getting BW AND construction ? bronze axes and cats. very nice.

other civ would not have gotten construction and BW, but bronze axes instead of bronze warriors, so with gold, you can upgrade those 4str units to 5str+15%vs city. less hammer-efficient, but really efficient too.

you'll only have catapults on top, well, they have roads in their lands, you not. your stack can be destroyed before being able to use the cats.


and none of that makes the luirchips good.

PBEMII showed this with Mitz'mahala... early axe-rush is powerful... to kill someone, not to win, he lost in the end.

you played a luirchip game where the only luirchip mechanic you used is the early GE.

however luirchips are not defined only by WS... their civ flavour and issues come really in force during mid game which is not based on bronze warriors, but mainly on slow un-upgradable-unpromotable golems.

.

oh, and I realized how it will change my next luirchip game. I thank you for that.

I really like the strat.
what I don't like are your comments about how the people that think luirchips are weaker the most other civs are wrong and how this powerful strat would show that. well, no.

for me, it does not show that luirchip are a really good civ. only that with a special start they can rush better than anyone else. and then they go back to being meh-meh waiting until they get 1move/turn fireball inferno unstoppable army.

 

[Horatius]

It's like talking to a wall.

 

[BobCW]

Yowza Bobowza, you got warriors and catapults with an incredible start. Really almost any civ can do this tho, and several can do it better, if your goal is simply warriors + siege for an early elim. Also, why did you bulb Bronze Working? The warriors can still get kills without the bonus strength, provided you have enough catapults, and you'd have been screwed if Mining hadn't revealed local copper. Better to use the engie to bulb Construction. The Luchiurp Construction-bulb Catapult Rush is a valid mp, albeit an expensive one. Bulbing BW is a waste, particularly since you can't even build axes to help the catapults take down archers.

 

[Calavente]

well, it's true you do the wall very well me thinks

 

[akatosh]

Thanks for posting Horatius. I learned quite a lot.

(I still want to make the Garrim boar rider rush work somehow, though.)

 

[Clove]

I find that Luchuirp are very powerful myself simply because of their world spell. The golems are just extra icing on the cake.

I just disagree with the phrase "in the right circumstances".

The world spell can be awesome in any circumstance. The easiest way to do it and see the incredible difference is to research masonry first and use the world spell immediately, even with just one city. Put your free hammer/engineer in your only city as a worker. The +2 hammers and +3 great person points is game breaking that early. It is hard to appreciate how powerful it is unless you do it.

I've also built 4 satellite cities on each corner of the capital in close radius to avoid as much upkeep as possible, ignoring other infrastructure. Pop the world spell. Put all 5 hammers/engineers in the capital (have warriors pick up hammers and suicide them on the capital to create the engineers with the hammers there). Create great engineers like bunnies breeding. Run GodKing civ to amplify the hammers. Overflowing industry builds anything fast.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

you can no longer stack more than one hammer in a city in more naval AI

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah, that is why people dislike the current implementation.
I'm curious what level you find Godking superior to Aristocracy on though.

 

[scutarii]

Lurchuirp as it is is not MP friendliest race: that's actually the reason for whining and moaning.

prepare early, move fast and strike first: thats the rule of MP games - of course, not for golems.

there is nothing wrong from "balancing " aspect vs AI or from AI. We simply cannot judge everything from MP perspective.

 

[Clove]

Yeah, that is why people dislike the current implementation.
I'm curious what level you find Godking superior to Aristocracy on though.

I play single player.

I usually play on emperor. I tried playing on the higher difficulties and can win if the stars align, but I don't find it to be very fun. I feel silly winning only games of restricted circumstances.

In the game where I stayed godking for an extended time I didn't have a lot of excess food, maybe because my cities were closer together for upkeep cost purposes. I also had a close neighbor occupying choice land near me, so I churned out military units and spent most of the game conquering cities. I did switch to aristocracy after a while, just not immediately.

The main point of my post was meant to point out the power of researching masonry first and getting the free engineer immediately. Luchuirp have an extra-expensive worker, so there is less need to research agriculture immediately anyhow.

And trying to get a second city too fast also gimpifies growth, especially with a more expensive worker that won't be developing extra food on those early turns. The free hammer/engineer with masonry is an alternate fast-grow start that compensates the luchuirp for their otherwise gimpy start.

I play single player. But if I was to play multi-player as Luchuirp I think a masonry-first-cast-world-spell-now strategy would be the best possible way to go.

 

[Clove]

Yeah, that is why people dislike the current implementation.
I'm curious what level you find Godking superior to Aristocracy on though.

I play single player.

I usually play on emperor. I tried playing on the higher difficulties and can win if the stars align, but I don't find it to be very fun. I feel silly winning only games of restricted circumstances.

In the game where I stayed godking for an extended time I didn't have a lot of excess food, maybe because my cities were closer together for upkeep cost purposes. I also had a close neighbor occupying choice land near me, so I churned out military units and spent most of the game conquering cities. I did switch to aristocracy after a while, just not immediately.

The main point of my post was meant to point out the power of researching masonry first and getting the free engineer immediately. Luchuirp have an extra-expensive worker, so there is less need to research agriculture immediately anyhow.

And trying to get a second city too fast also gimpifies growth, especially with a more expensive worker that won't be developing extra food on those early turns. The free hammer/engineer with masonry is an alternate fast-grow start that compensates the luchuirp for their otherwise gimpy start.

I play single player. But if I was to play multi-player as Luchuirp I think a masonry-first-cast-world-spell-now strategy would be the best possible way to go.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Lurchuirp as it is is not MP friendliest race: that's actually the reason for whining and moaning.

prepare early, move fast and strike first: thats the rule of MP games - of course, not for golems.

there is nothing wrong from "balancing " aspect vs AI or from AI. We simply cannot judge everything from MP perspective.

I disagree.
Yes the Luchuirp are massively underpowered in base on MP, but that isn't relevant here.
Lets compare wood golems and axeman here: an axe is S5 at 60 hammers, and a wood golem is S6 at 90 hammers. So 3 axeman = 2 wood golems in price. However, an axe can pretty easily start with two promotions (lets ignore the massive advantages of mobility here) so we are comparing S7 with S6. Lets pretend for a second that it is simple to promote Barnaxus to C5 (it really, really isn't - especially with the risk of losing him and having to start again). That gives you 2 S7.5 golems versus 3 S7 axes. In an actual combat, axes would win that easy.
In other words, a no trait axe army is superior to a golem army, and golems are the Luchuirp special line (so any alternative could come with say the Khazad collateral, the Ljolsofar/Lanun economy etc.).
But there is another area where the Luchuirp are worse then their alternative - that is, in games versus the AI they cannot snowball their units. In MP games units that win often die anyway, but against the AI it is trivial to prevent this. This means your axes become better over time, but golems don't.
And as to the whole fireball trick - you are gaining the ability to cast fireballs, not spectres. Fireballs aren't that good, and other civs provide better collateral (easy Malakim mages, Khazad, arcane civs etc.)
So what is wrong with balancing is that you have a inferior civ, to the point where I'd prefer a vanilla group, and that's even ignoring the mud golem nerf.

 

[Clove]

I think this Fall From Heaven mod is why this game has so much replay value, and also why I feel no compulsion to buy Civ 5.

Despite the thorough and accurate numbers in comparing axemen to wood golems, I'm still not convinced this means Luchuirp are inferior. My first reason for thinking this is that my own experience has been otherwise, even though this seems like a flimsy reason.

It is not too hard to get axemen with 5 experience, or aggressive axemen with 2 experience that will give wood golems a good fight at a bargain price. But to get those promotions, you have to give up something else that would give a civilization some alternative benefit. For example, if you don't need to run apprenticeship to get 2 extra XP, then you don't have to lose a turn to disorder switching to the civic. You also don't have to pay 10% extra hammers for military units. You can stay at the low upkeep cost of the starting civic in that category, or you can use a different civic for some other benefit (like Arete).

If you have an aggressive trait to help get the extra promotions, then there is some other trait you do not have. I think aggressive is one of the better traits to have, but still, to have it means not having something else.

You can't upgrade luchuirp warriors, but like others have posted in other threads you could go octopus overlords and upgrade down the drown/stygian guard line. But again, this doesn't mean it is fine, because you give up something else (like running Arete) in order to do this.

And so my main point isn't missed, let me say it again. I like that there isn't a clear answer, and I don't expect everyone to agree. It makes the game interesting and replayable.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I guess what I'm saying is that the Luchuirp civ advantage (and golems are their feature so they SHOULD be a clear-cut improvement - like moroi/vampires, like hippus HA and so on) is questionable as a advantage at all, to the point where I consider the MNAI version strictly inferior.

If you are building up for an attack, or have just been invaded, then xp civics are an appropriate reaction. And even without AGG, you could have CHA (takes only one attack (or two 95% attacks) to level), SPI (for no anarchy), raiders (OMGUS better) and so on. Perhaps there is a slight advantage for wood golems (which I disagree with) but if so it is incredibly minor.
It is interesting to note that most strategies surronding making best use of the Luchuirp involve ignoring the golem line entirely.
And yes, FFH2 is what makes civ 4 worthwhile