Why was Alex able to declare war here?

troglodyt

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
38
Hi all,

The following game-ruining situation occured and I want to understand what I missed:

The settings are: aggressive AI, no vassal states, no tech trading, victory conditions time+conquest (i.e. no AP)

By turn 391 only Gengis and Alex are still left besides me. I have a defensive pact with Alex who is also friendly towards me. Next turn Gengis declares on me but thanks to the DP gets himself into a two front war. The very next turn Alex declares on me even after begging from him and being unable to declare on him myself. There is no AP in this game which might have caused this turn of events in other games.

AFAIK, a DOW should be impossible in this scenario. Does aggressive AI change this? What did I miss otherwise?

Thx for any help.
 

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AcaMetis

Emperor
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So Alex started plotting war before the defensive pact, and when it broke he finally DoWed even while already being at war? That's just rough.
 

troglodyt

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
38
So Alex started plotting war before the defensive pact, and when it broke he finally DoWed even while already being at war? That's just rough.
Not only that. I begged from him and he still declared war the next turn, while being friendly and already at war.
 

Nick723

Prince
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Mar 6, 2020
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I don’t think that’s possible unless he immediately vassaled to Genghis?
 

AcaMetis

Emperor
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I don't know of any mechanic that allows a civ to DoW someone through a peace treaty barring the AP. If becoming a vassal would require you to DoW someone you've got a peace treaty wish you don't have the option of becoming a vassal. That's part of why players like to beg from AIs before/during wars, both to prevent backstabs/bribes and to prevent the target from becoming a vassal.
 

Peteyboy

Warlord
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
162
Similar to above posters, not certain about exact game mechanics - I know some leaders as described above can DOW if pre-planning it (often a bribe will only prevent it for 10 turns etc) - A defensive pact wouldn't stop Alex preparing to DOW you. (Friendly should do though.) Alex is one leader who will DOW multiple players.

The only other thought I had, and I don't know how attitude determines this, can be the "Auto" DOW, which you see occasionally, normally involving culture - Sometimes when a certain number of tiles are being lost to culture, it triggers an automatic war, even if/when the AI isn't ready for it (I.E No pre-planning) - I tend to see this most often when a city is close to revolting, from the map above I don't think that's an issue (unless a recent city flipped.)

*I also recall a LONG time ago (funnily enough involving Alex DOWing me (This was probably Vanilla) - But I had a scout for a very long time just sitting on his border and he DOWed me, just to remove it (We were nowhere near each other, he killed it in 1 turn, then peace was agreed (I was puzzled then.)) Possibly there are some Alexander rules, which don't meet the usual criteria?*

Also is it possible that it turned to Pleased for 1 turn - you were only +11, maybe a AP vote or something (or sudden drop in trade favourability / religion?) - If the bribe was successful though, I don't know anything apart from the above that might explain it, except the AP as per Ace above.
 

Gumbolt

Phoenix Rising
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1764 and you still have 12 trebs. Only 2 AI in the game?
So no DP after GK dow.
Looks cruel. Do you use any mods like bug/Bull mods which would show when an AI is in war mode?
Agree with above likely went to pleased and Greeks already in war mode.

Where was the main Greek stack? By your borders? That too is another indicator. They always leave stack near to person they plan to attack. Stack must of been right on your border. How big was the stack?
 

Kaitzilla

Lord Croissant
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Jun 21, 2008
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12,270
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America!
Alex's DOW is pretty shocking.

I can only assume he started plotting war at Pleased and then later you got him to Friendly?


Even then, the beg should have stopped any DOW cold for 10 turns.

The only way around that is if there was already a peace treaty in effect and the 10 turns expired.
The "two peace treaty" bug is pretty infamous because as soon as the first one is cancelled the new one is also cancelled even though it still has turns left on it.

I would certainly rage after begging Friendly Alex and then got DOW'd next turn.
 

drewisfat

King
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
864
Two peace treaties bug could explain why the beg didn't work. But it doesn't explain why Alex wouldn't drop the plot the instant he found himself at war with Genghis.

*big grain of salt delving into 10-year-old memory of something I never really understood*
I believe this phenomenon is due to AI_FINAL_WAR_STRATEGY, which IIRC just kind of overrules everything. This isn't something you can practically encounter in a normal game due to all the prereqs. However, the settings used may have turned this from nigh impossible to inevitable. With all other victory conditions turned off, the AI must seek conquest instead of view you as a friend and pursue diplo/culture in vain. Fewer AIs and no vassals sets the stage for there to be 3 players remaining near parity, at which point the AI knows if it kills one off it wins the game. The only thing holding it in check at that point is military power. AGG AI notably makes the AI overrates its military power. Then when you got DoWed by Genghis you simultaneously lost your DPact AND you have a war enemy. This instantly plummeted your perceived military power to like 20% of what it was before, and Alex went for the win ignoring relations and perhaps even ignoring truces. I don't think the AI is physically constrained by truces in the way that the player is -- just that most war checks are stopped if there's a truce, but not FINAL_WAR. This probably needs danf or another code digger to rise from the grave to confirm. But I do remember a long time ago I vowed to never turn off victory conditions, and I think it was because I ran into shenanigans similar to this.
 

troglodyt

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
38
1764 and you still have 12 trebs. Only 2 AI in the game?
So no DP after GK dow.
Looks cruel. Do you use any mods like bug/Bull mods which would show when an AI is in war mode?
Agree with above likely went to pleased and Greeks already in war mode.

Where was the main Greek stack? By your borders? That too is another indicator. They always leave stack near to person they plan to attack. Stack must of been right on your border. How big was the stack?
The game had some self-imposed restraints: Immortal, no tech trading and on my part no teching, only spying. By 1764 only Genghis and Alex were left as we three had gobbled up the rest.

Yes, there was a greek stack with 100 units right on my border. That's why this situation was so frustrating. I forgot to load Bug mod at beginning and just played with unmodded BtS.
 

troglodyt

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
38
Two peace treaties bug could explain why the beg didn't work. But it doesn't explain why Alex wouldn't drop the plot the instant he found himself at war with Genghis.

*big grain of salt delving into 10-year-old memory of something I never really understood*
I believe this phenomenon is due to AI_FINAL_WAR_STRATEGY, which IIRC just kind of overrules everything. This isn't something you can practically encounter in a normal game due to all the prereqs. However, the settings used may have turned this from nigh impossible to inevitable. With all other victory conditions turned off, the AI must seek conquest instead of view you as a friend and pursue diplo/culture in vain. Fewer AIs and no vassals sets the stage for there to be 3 players remaining near parity, at which point the AI knows if it kills one off it wins the game. The only thing holding it in check at that point is military power. AGG AI notably makes the AI overrates its military power. Then when you got DoWed by Genghis you simultaneously lost your DPact AND you have a war enemy. This instantly plummeted your perceived military power to like 20% of what it was before, and Alex went for the win ignoring relations and perhaps even ignoring truces. I don't think the AI is physically constrained by truces in the way that the player is -- just that most war checks are stopped if there's a truce, but not FINAL_WAR. This probably needs danf or another code digger to rise from the grave to confirm. But I do remember a long time ago I vowed to never turn off victory conditions, and I think it was because I ran into shenanigans similar to this.
Ok, if this is the case then I was doomed, as I had only enough troops to deal with Genghis. Interesting mechanic though.

Thx for your insight.
 
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