1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Why Women are false and why I am not sexist for saying so

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Terxpahseyton, May 7, 2014.

  1. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,267
    They'll get into noise and complicating factors, but at the end of the day whatever the message received was is the message that was sent regardless of intent. There isn't any value judgement there about anything, simply that communication happened not according to plan and this is what that communication wound up being.
     
  2. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,989
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
    If you're simply substituting "message sent" with "message received", then I see your point. But what you're doing is pretty pointless, since looking at the message sent through the lens of the message received still only tells you one side of the story, which is emphatically not what communication studies is interested in.

    Maybe this difference in perspective is where the whole discussion about smarm can come in.
     
  3. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,267
    It's not pointless at all if one values the end effect of the communicative process. But seriously, you don't need to convince me of misconstrued messaging and fault not always lying with the sender rather than the receiver. That was rather the whole point of my responses to the "succubus" discussion, no?
     
  4. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,989
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
    'Communication' is not 'propaganda' though. That's one of the first things they talk about.
     
  5. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,267
    Propaganda is a jump past what I'm talking about. I'm intending to reference valuing accurately transmitting the desired idea(s) as the end goal. Not necessarily influencing opinions or worldviews.
     
  6. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,989
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
    "Transmitting the desired idea(s)" is what propagandists say they do. They can't help it if the audience is just so convinced by what they say!
     
  7. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,267
    Point aelf?
     
  8. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,445
    Perhaps the reason why communication was invented was not the spread of one's ideas, but to add a level of control over another person?
     
  9. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,267
    Or to enable a degree of cooperation in a dangerous and hard world.
     
  10. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,445
    Perhaps one day that will catch on?
     
  11. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,651
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    One of the issues is that words mean different things to different people. To use a perhaps extreme example, the British are quite fond of understatement. There's a story from the Korean War in which an American brigade commander radioed the British forces on the Imjin asking how their situation was, to which the British commander replied 'things are a bit sticky here'. The American heard the sounds that he made, but understood the message as 'we're having difficulty but we're alright', while the British officer understood it as 'things are going badly wrong and we need help'.
     
  12. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,267
    I agree!
     
  13. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,651
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    Well, I'd argue that the message sent was 'we're in deep trouble' and the message received was 'we're fine on our own'; the actual words were simply an intermediary. To use another analogy, the message of ...---... is 'anybody who can hear this, help me', not dit-dit-dit-da-da-da-dit-dit-dit or even SOS.
     
  14. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,267
    The message attempted to be sent was "we need help." Unfortunately, the words used were not "we need help," they included semantic noise. Thus the message sent was, in fact, ambiguous.
     
  15. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,651
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    I think I agree with your point but I'd change the emphasis - to me, the message (ie, the information that the speaker wanted to convey) was unambiguous (he knew exactly what he meant), but the means or the locution were open to misinterpretation by somebody not using the same semantic codes.
     
  16. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,989
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
    The point is a lot of people see communication as an interplay between action and re-action; and, in that vein, perhaps entailing confrontation.

    Shaping a message to send in order to elicit only a particular reaction - could it not be called manipulation? Yes, everyone does that. But to focus a discussion on communication on just that aspect? That's for laymen.
     
  17. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20,267
    The message in the sender's mind though, where it is unambiguous, was not how it was sent. It was sent with the semantic noise embedded. I think we are indeed very close on points, I'm just maybe being a bit stuffier on the definition of noise?

    One could make a good argument that practical output is for laymen while theory is for the more disconnected academic realm, which is why I tried to qualify the statement with the words "communication studies" rather than "in the real, useful, world." That's represented by the fact that skills courses tend to fall under 100/200 level courses in American academics whereas theory courses that don't have the word "introduction" in their title more frequently come in at 300/400 level. I'll happily stipulate that it can certainly be different elsewhere, outside my realm of experience. Is that the argument you are making?
     
  18. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    7,487
    Language is a notoriously unreliable medium of communication.

    And Brits are notoriously bad speakers of American. Very few of them study it in college (or "uni" as they call it). This neglect is a legacy of the era of imperial domination; they expect the whole world to speak their language.
     
  19. storealex

    storealex In service of peace

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,710
    Location:
    Denmark
    Aren't we all false and sexist if you really think about it?
     
  20. schlaufuchs

    schlaufuchs La Femme Moderne

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    15,831
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    It's a shame this post got buried the way it did. If anyone takes anything beneficial away from this thread it should be this post, some of Tf's earlier posts about life as defying narrative/rigid categorization, and that anecdotal evidence does not constitute empirical proof (Even if that anecdotal evidence is "all those women who do it online".)
     

Share This Page