Why Women are false and why I am not sexist for saying so

Actually, communication studies will tell you the opposite.

They'll get into noise and complicating factors, but at the end of the day whatever the message received was is the message that was sent regardless of intent. There isn't any value judgement there about anything, simply that communication happened not according to plan and this is what that communication wound up being.
 
If you're simply substituting "message sent" with "message received", then I see your point. But what you're doing is pretty pointless, since looking at the message sent through the lens of the message received still only tells you one side of the story, which is emphatically not what communication studies is interested in.

Maybe this difference in perspective is where the whole discussion about smarm can come in.
 
It's not pointless at all if one values the end effect of the communicative process. But seriously, you don't need to convince me of misconstrued messaging and fault not always lying with the sender rather than the receiver. That was rather the whole point of my responses to the "succubus" discussion, no?
 
It's not pointless at all if one values the end effect of the communicative process.

'Communication' is not 'propaganda' though. That's one of the first things they talk about.
 
Propaganda is a jump past what I'm talking about. I'm intending to reference valuing accurately transmitting the desired idea(s) as the end goal. Not necessarily influencing opinions or worldviews.
 
"Transmitting the desired idea(s)" is what propagandists say they do. They can't help it if the audience is just so convinced by what they say!
 
Point aelf?
 
Perhaps the reason why communication was invented was not the spread of one's ideas, but to add a level of control over another person?
 
Or to enable a degree of cooperation in a dangerous and hard world.
 
Perhaps one day that will catch on?
 
They'll get into noise and complicating factors, but at the end of the day whatever the message received was is the message that was sent regardless of intent. There isn't any value judgement there about anything, simply that communication happened not according to plan and this is what that communication wound up being.

One of the issues is that words mean different things to different people. To use a perhaps extreme example, the British are quite fond of understatement. There's a story from the Korean War in which an American brigade commander radioed the British forces on the Imjin asking how their situation was, to which the British commander replied 'things are a bit sticky here'. The American heard the sounds that he made, but understood the message as 'we're having difficulty but we're alright', while the British officer understood it as 'things are going badly wrong and we need help'.
 
One of the issues is that words mean different things to different people. To use a perhaps extreme example, the British are quite fond of understatement. There's a story from the Korean War in which an American brigade commander radioed the British forces on the Imjin asking how their situation was, to which the British commander replied 'things are a bit sticky here'. The American heard the sounds that he made, but understood the message as 'we're having difficulty but we're alright', while the British officer understood it as 'things are going badly wrong and we need help'.

I agree!
 
Well, I'd argue that the message sent was 'we're in deep trouble' and the message received was 'we're fine on our own'; the actual words were simply an intermediary. To use another analogy, the message of ...---... is 'anybody who can hear this, help me', not dit-dit-dit-da-da-da-dit-dit-dit or even SOS.
 
The message attempted to be sent was "we need help." Unfortunately, the words used were not "we need help," they included semantic noise. Thus the message sent was, in fact, ambiguous.
 
I think I agree with your point but I'd change the emphasis - to me, the message (ie, the information that the speaker wanted to convey) was unambiguous (he knew exactly what he meant), but the means or the locution were open to misinterpretation by somebody not using the same semantic codes.
 
Point aelf?

The point is a lot of people see communication as an interplay between action and re-action; and, in that vein, perhaps entailing confrontation.

Shaping a message to send in order to elicit only a particular reaction - could it not be called manipulation? Yes, everyone does that. But to focus a discussion on communication on just that aspect? That's for laymen.
 
I think I agree with your point but I'd change the emphasis - to me, the message (ie, the information that the speaker wanted to convey) was unambiguous (he knew exactly what he meant), but the means or the locution were open to misinterpretation by somebody not using the same semantic codes.

The message in the sender's mind though, where it is unambiguous, was not how it was sent. It was sent with the semantic noise embedded. I think we are indeed very close on points, I'm just maybe being a bit stuffier on the definition of noise?

The point is a lot of people see communication as an interplay between action and re-action; and, in that vein, perhaps entailing confrontation.

Shaping a message to send in order to elicit only a particular reaction - could it not be called manipulation? Yes, everyone does that. But to focus a discussion on communication on just that aspect? That's for laymen.

One could make a good argument that practical output is for laymen while theory is for the more disconnected academic realm, which is why I tried to qualify the statement with the words "communication studies" rather than "in the real, useful, world." That's represented by the fact that skills courses tend to fall under 100/200 level courses in American academics whereas theory courses that don't have the word "introduction" in their title more frequently come in at 300/400 level. I'll happily stipulate that it can certainly be different elsewhere, outside my realm of experience. Is that the argument you are making?
 
One of the issues is that words mean different things to different people. To use a perhaps extreme example, the British are quite fond of understatement. There's a story from the Korean War in which an American brigade commander radioed the British forces on the Imjin asking how their situation was, to which the British commander replied 'things are a bit sticky here'. The American heard the sounds that he made, but understood the message as 'we're having difficulty but we're alright', while the British officer understood it as 'things are going badly wrong and we need help'.

Language is a notoriously unreliable medium of communication.

And Brits are notoriously bad speakers of American. Very few of them study it in college (or "uni" as they call it). This neglect is a legacy of the era of imperial domination; they expect the whole world to speak their language.
 
Aren't we all false and sexist if you really think about it?
 
I agree that "power and status" probably predate civilisation and "culture" as we know it today; or put alternatively (as you have done in the first few sentences), that there is no "precultural" time where no social structure exists at all. But TF's assertion wasn't merely that power and status are culturally dependent, but that expressions of power and status are culturally dependent, in the sense that one can both demonstrate and infer power and status via purely cultural references. TF gave the examples of a Broadsword and a Rolex. Wielding effectively the former and possessing the latter certainly demonstrate power and status, and yet they are culturally dependent: killing people with a broadsword in modern day Europe would demonstrate madness and danger, and would be rather unattractive to women (one should hope), while a Rolex might mean very little at all to women in some Amazonian tribe and be far less impressive than, say, a nice headdress (at the risk of sounding ignorant and racist......).

So already we can see that the determinants of attractiveness for women are, to a large extent, culturally influenced. I contend that the same applies to men, that what men typically find attractive are not strictly the biological facts of youth and fertility, but the expressions of attractiveness that we have confounded with biological facts. Red cheeks probably do, biologically speaking, signify sexual arousal (amongst many other things!), and we probably are hardwired to take slightly reddened cheeks as an indicator of arousal (amongst many other things!). But I contend that we are not attracted to women who wear red blusher because they trigger some biological instinct that the woman is totally up for it, but rather because red blusher is a cultural expression that a woman is totally up for it. We have subconsciously learnt through experience that women who are out on the pull wear lots of make-up, and so we know from this experience that women with red cheeks are up for it, and thus are more likely to be attracted to them. This experience is entirely culturally dependent; an Amazonian woman might look, act or dress in an entirely different way when she is on the pull, and thus the expressions of attractiveness might be entirely different. And because this is all happening at a level that our conscious brains don't have access to, we assume there's got to be some innate biological reason. Well, there is, sort of: we've learnt it from experience, from our peers, from our culture, from all around us. We're really good at doing that -- learning stuff -- and we do it on such an innate, biological, subconscious level that when we do consciously access that knowledge, we treat it as an immutable biological fact, one that just has to be universally true.

So I don't accept that there is some immutable biological fact, because, having encountered many different cultures, and many different ideas of attractiveness, I can only conclude that cultural influences rather dwarf any biological fact. And that's even permitting that we are talking averages: the influence of individual preferences clearly dwarf both cultural and biological influences in all but the most trivial of features. If I were constructing a predictive statistical model, I would surely build one based on the peculiarities of the individual, and not the facts of biology or culture or whatever. I can't imagine that simple biological facts offer much predictive power at all.


Oh, here's a good one: Why are men in Botswana attracted to fat women?

It's a shame this post got buried the way it did. If anyone takes anything beneficial away from this thread it should be this post, some of Tf's earlier posts about life as defying narrative/rigid categorization, and that anecdotal evidence does not constitute empirical proof (Even if that anecdotal evidence is "all those women who do it online".)
 
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