Lexicus
Deity
He already sort of answered that: it's a natural outcome that required no "force" to happen.
Why You Will Never Get Equal Pay for Women
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
He already sort of answered that: it's a natural outcome that required no "force" to happen.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
While the jobs may sound the same (one job puts products on pallet, the other removes products from pallet), there are other differences. How many cases is each job required to move. I may 'order fill' 3000 cases, but at the store the stocker may handle 300 because of time it takes to rip open the cases and putting the individual bottles/cans on the shelf.
Hours of work, does the warehouse work 12 hour shifts while the store works 8 hours? Does the warehouse start at 4 AM while the store morning shift starts at 6 AM?
Operating the machinery may be something that requires more training than operating a manual handjack.
I really doubt the company decided "Oh, more men are likely to work here, we will pay them more". Most jobs base the pay based on similar jobs in the area. How you define "similar" is debatable. Maybe more women should apply at the warehouse? If the company discourages women from applying then you have a valid court case.
This looks really bad, I mean amazingly wimpy. One 17 pound case per minute is overworking yourself? REally? Try this sometime. Time yourself as you move a case of similar weight, and then sit there while you wait, 45, 50, 55 seconds before you lift another one.
22 kg/48.5 lbs is a standard requirement for almost any manufacturing/warehouse job, whether you will have to lift that 1000 times a day or 3 times. Pity the people working in meat departments who have to lift 70 - 98 pounds.
Wonder how all the 50 pound bags of rice gets moved, trying to Team Lift that would have people almost hugging each other. For 50 pounds what really matters is the size of the item. 50 pound bag of flour=one person. 50 pound cabinet=Team lift.
Silurian
Deity
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Tesco will have to show that the jobs are not of equal VALUE.
Very few jobs are exactly the same even in the same place of work.
Arguments about the ability to lift heavy weights for extended periods of time will not help Tesco or other employers case here in the UK.
It may actually be used as evidence against the employer for designing the job that way.
Also as I stated before if an employer gave a court or tribunal evidence that it expected its employees to lift loads other than in the wimpy way then it would be unable to defend itself against claims for back injuries etc.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Nobody in the UK can buy 50 pound (22 kg) cases of rice? Those bags of rice has to get there somehow.
In 17 years from what I've seen it always seems like the same type of people get back injuries (unless they were in the meat department). It's not a gender thing either, as I've seen just as many males as females. More males I think, but the job has many more males than females so I don't know the % of each gender.
Notice the studies posted say "chance of back injuries in a certain segment of the population". That segment of the population, when it isn't someone far shorter than average, or anorexic-like skinny, or using terrible lifting techniques ("fly like a bird") are the ones that look and act lazy, aren't likely to last very long at the company and looking to weasel their way into 'light duty' to collect a paycheck for a few more weeks until the inevitable. Thankfully they don't let these people pull this trick forever, and they flat out tell them "Ok, you have x days of 'modified duty assignments' after that you need to get a new weight restrictions/job restrictions from your doctor or it will just move on to a worker's compensation claim. I know some want to think 'everyone wants to work' but the reality is there are some that don't.
These people are about 1% of the people I've seen working at my employer, so a pretty small segment of the population. And the guidelines in the US are just that in the US, voluntary guidelines. It's exceedingly difficult for my wife to find a job as 90% of the jobs require her to lift 50 lbs, which she can do if she only had to do it say 3 times a day (which is what she had to do for one job). But to pass a 'physical', (which nowadays is more of a physical stress test than a doctor checking your heart beat), she needed to lift 50 lbs up to her forehead (she is a short asian) three times in 5 minutes. She could only do it once.
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It's kids and then everything after that reinforcing things. You get attrition at every point.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Unless you're on drugs what you're seeing is probably what's really there
Broken_Erika
Play with me.
Purple wombats doing show-tunes in a bathtub?
Silurian
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25kg bags of rice would be moved on a pallet by forklift or pallet truck.
If they were moved individually in a shop they would be moved by sack barrow.
Only Purple wombats would be expected to lift them to their forehead.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Individually, yes when moving it a great distance a sack barrow makes sense, and expecting anyone to carry the rice any more than a few feet is asking for an injury. The most often scenario in any workplace is moving a case from point A to point B ideally, very close by, whether it's moving a case off an assembly line onto a pallet, or removing a case from a pallet onto a pallet that goes with other items the customer (or store) has ordered. Removing or adding a single case would not require a TEAM lift or a forklift was my point.
When rice is the only thing on the pallet, no, rice is not stacked up to your forehead. It's when a store has ordered multiple different things, you can't just stack two pallets each of them up to your waist and then use a forklift to double-stack them, because since they have so many different sized items you won't get pallets that are nice and flat that allows you to double-stack them. So you either manually stack the cases on the pallets up to your forehead (or higher) or you ship pallets out that are only waist high. From a cost perspective, as well as an impact on the environment perspective, the more freight you can ship out on a single truck, the better.
There are many different ways jobs are different, many different ways to say the jobs are of different VALUE.
It's a wonder how people did anything before mechanized warehouses. It's a wonder how so many companies survive today that aren't mechanized. I doubt Tesco is the only warehouse in the UK.
Perhaps we are having an over-reaction here, but I feel you are putting too much faith in the 'ergonomic guidelines'. The fact someone can sue their employer for a back injury and use those guidelines in their argument against the company in court is a given. I originally read your argument as if the UK has banned heavy lifting, or any company that requires it will be sued for millions of dollars/pounds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that to be true. Sure, there will be some back injuries and some companies will have to pay some medical expenses, but these injuries will be only a small percentage of the workers to the point of not being much of a factor compared to what it would take to eliminate them.
The guidelines look to me to be "If this is the hardest someone has to work, then if they claim a back injury, as an ergonomics experts we will back up the employer and say this is all but impossible to have happened". Otherwise, when just seeking reimbursement for medical expenses and lost work time the system heavily favors the worker, with the burden of proof on the employer to prove the injury could not have happened, or in fact did not happen on the job.
Zardnaar's posts makes me think there are some international standards in shipping. Even if it's not officially written down somewhere, there are more similarities than differences when comparing shipping products in the US, New Zealand and I'm sure the UK. 22 kg being the limit for most products that are not expected to be TEAM lifted being one of those similarities. I sincerely doubt the UK requires all producers, domestically and those shipping internationally (to or from the UK) to ship items in boxes half the size as everyone else on the planet does. Which doubles the packaging cost, btw. Unless proven otherwise, I don't think the UK is that against 'heavy lifting' as you think it is.
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It would be surprise to me if an employer is not allowed to vary pay based on facility. Not all Walmart warehouses pay the same, nor do all the stores pay the same. State minimum wage laws and cost of living in a particular area are obvious things that affect the wages. I found out the warehouses that paid more than my 'rural' one were warehouses in major metropolitan areas (cost of living obviously) and one in Nebraska. Why Nebraska? That one has railroads to compete with in attracting workers.
When my employer does a wage comparison with other employers I'm just told they compare 'similar employers in the area'. What is 'similar'? Just food distributers? All warehouses? All major employers? Which employers they use is unknown, but it makes more sense to compare a food distributing warehouse to warehouse across the street (even if that warehouse is a snow blower warehouse instead of a food warehouse), than it is to compare a warehouse to a retail store. The retail store should be compared to other retail stores, even if a few positions in that retail store is similar to warehouse work.
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If was near Omaha I could see it. Many years ago Omaha became a hot area for call centers due to all the available workers. They eventually got so successful with them that it started to affect wages across the board as more competition for unskilled workers increased. I don't know if that's still the case.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Couple of interesting videos:
Job similar to what I do, but with alot more automation of the forklift than what I use (I just have a button on a glove to send it forward, it doesn't turn corners by itself or drive itself to the dock). Picking more than 1 case per minute (start watching at the 3 minute mark, and I know it's fast forwarding, but still you can tell he's picking more than 1 per minute) and doesn't seem to be working too hard. Sure, those aren't all 50 pound cases, but many look over the 17 pound 'limit' the calculator claims is 'overworked'.
Those cases seem to be much better profiled for easier stacking than what I have to put up with. People just hired can have pallets that look like this (though personally I've never seen it that bad, it would have tipped over long before getting shrink wrapped).
First 1:40 or so of video seems to be what Zardnaar is talking about. Second half shows how robotics can do that work.
Spoiler :
Job similar to what I do, but with alot more automation of the forklift than what I use (I just have a button on a glove to send it forward, it doesn't turn corners by itself or drive itself to the dock). Picking more than 1 case per minute (start watching at the 3 minute mark, and I know it's fast forwarding, but still you can tell he's picking more than 1 per minute) and doesn't seem to be working too hard. Sure, those aren't all 50 pound cases, but many look over the 17 pound 'limit' the calculator claims is 'overworked'.
Those cases seem to be much better profiled for easier stacking than what I have to put up with. People just hired can have pallets that look like this (though personally I've never seen it that bad, it would have tipped over long before getting shrink wrapped).
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
First 1:40 or so of video seems to be what Zardnaar is talking about. Second half shows how robotics can do that work.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Silurian
Deity
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Tesco will probably lose because this has already gone to court for other employers.
From The Guardian
Women who worked for Birmingham council win equal pay court fight
Supreme court rules that 170 former council employees who did not receive bonuses can launch compensation claims
Press Association
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/24/women-birmingham-council-pay-court
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
So is the argument for value of work in the equality laws of the UK basically "Can't sell stuff without the store and the store can't sell stuff without the warehouse therefore they are of equal value." ?
What a strange concept. I guess the janitors should be paid the same as doctors under that reasoning. Doctor would have no patients if the hospital was filthy.
If one store has a power outage and can't operate that hurts, but not as much as if one distribution center has a power outage and can't operate.
What a strange concept. I guess the janitors should be paid the same as doctors under that reasoning. Doctor would have no patients if the hospital was filthy.
If one store has a power outage and can't operate that hurts, but not as much as if one distribution center has a power outage and can't operate.
Silurian
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The warehouse can not operate without the stores.
The stores could operate without the warehouse, as happened in the past, but it would be a bit of a nightmare now due to the increase in the number of suppliers and product lines.
The doctors is far more highly trained etc than the janitor so will quite rightly be paid more.
A groundsman may well have a similar level of training etc to a janitor so should have equal pay per hour.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-equal-work
The stores could operate without the warehouse, as happened in the past, but it would be a bit of a nightmare now due to the increase in the number of suppliers and product lines.
The doctors is far more highly trained etc than the janitor so will quite rightly be paid more.
A groundsman may well have a similar level of training etc to a janitor so should have equal pay per hour.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-equal-work
Ryika
Lazy Wannabe Artista
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The Birmingham case does not give us a hint either way, because it was shown that both jobs are about equally demanding in that case.
That's the important part in the Tesco case as well, if the workers can show that working in a warehouse is about as demanding as working in a distribution center, then Tesco will lose, if not, then not.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Absolutely agree that should be equal pay.
Working at same supermarket location, I'm fine with equal pay in this case.
The example you posted earlier of city workers and bonuses I'd need more details on. If it was a "the city's running a budget surplus so we are handing out bonuses" then yes, all workers should get it, not just certain jobs (that happened to be male dominated). But to think cooks and catering staff* should be paid the same as road workers operating heavy equipment seems kind of loopy European thinking (the article doesn't say if the normal pay is the same, just that they all should have received the bonuses).
*Assuming these are normal cooks and catering staff (easily replaceable) that doesn't require much training, college degrees and not serving food to the Queen or something.
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