Not one of my more scientific games, just felt like trying some wide play with Tradition and Artistry after recent debates.
If you want some real "science" I have a few plays where I literally tried Tradition and Progress on the same starts to directly compare them.
I'll update this thread with some musings, again this is more of a feel thread than real numbers.
1) So I'm on Turn 101, 4 policies in, with tons of land at my disposal. Happiness wise I definitely feel like Tradition lags behind at this stage in the game. With 3 luxs (1 from the AI) I normally am able to settle a 4 city civ on Immortal at 50% happy. Here, even though I have an extra +2 happy from purity, I'm still under the threshold. That may not sound like much, but it has a big difference in growth and especially new settler production.
2) Money is also more of a struggle on Tradition. I normally don't need markets at all as Progress, but I am in the red right now and I'm having to switch to some markets now to make it work.
3) Tradition does culture faster. While Progress has the faster Tier 2 policy, by Tier 4 I clearly feel Tradition is the faster culture collector.
4) Roads are slower. Its a combination of no incentive, slower workers, and it takes longer to get your worker pool up without the free one.
5) You do notice the increase speed in the capital at this point if your running the engineer. For me its a +3 hammer difference (engineer is +1 hammer over working a forest, +4 from tradition base in capital, -2 from progress bonus), and when your pushing out a wonder or building that +3 does make a key difference at this stage in the game.
6) Turn 112 is where I noticed the first true Tradition advantage in my opinion, my GE. Now on Progress honestly I don't factor GEs in my play a lot, you don't get them till forges and by that time I will often put down manufactories, as their bulbs aren't as strong at that point.
But in this case, the hanging gardens happened to be open. I didn't really make an attempt for it, but I had the GE so I snagged it. The fact that I have the option to do that is very nice if the opportunity presents itself.
7) Turn 123, so gold is interesting at this point. On the one hand, I feel like I just do not have as much gold for building investment. But on the other, I do find my borders are generally more "where I need them to be", so I have to invest less gold there. On the whole I think I'm still gold short in comparison but not as much as it might look on paper.
8) Even when trying to go wide, I think its worth doing a round of ITRs to the capital for Tradition. You really need that food early to get the city to a point where it can work specialists and still be productive. Otherwise, I notice I tend to get into a rut where either I'm not working any specialists just to get the city going, or I work specialists to sacrifice gains.
9) Turn 168: Going into war and getting my super elephants. Something I also noticed with Tradition as well is that local happiness is a much bigger deal than it is with Progress (once I get progress' happiness policy). I either really have to control population, or I don't have any non-capitals that can build military units with any good speed, putting a production burden on the capital.
10) Humanism really does generate a lot of GAP with tradition. I think this is one of the key synergies between Artistry and Tradition that Progress lacks. You have a good amount great works of literature at this point in the game with Tradition than Progress in most cases, so the extra GAP is a boost.
11) One note about Faith Buys. In general if your not going CV, then your faith options aren't that great with Tradition + Artistry. GEs just aren't making a big drive at this point, and I wouldn't ever go for a GMusician outside of CV. So generally this is why it pairs best with Rationalism to focus on GS when you can. However, that comes very late as compared to Progress that can culture bomb GWriters write as you hit industrial, really sending you towards your ideology quickly. This is still imo one of Progress' greatest advantages.
If you want some real "science" I have a few plays where I literally tried Tradition and Progress on the same starts to directly compare them.
I'll update this thread with some musings, again this is more of a feel thread than real numbers.
Spoiler :
1) So I'm on Turn 101, 4 policies in, with tons of land at my disposal. Happiness wise I definitely feel like Tradition lags behind at this stage in the game. With 3 luxs (1 from the AI) I normally am able to settle a 4 city civ on Immortal at 50% happy. Here, even though I have an extra +2 happy from purity, I'm still under the threshold. That may not sound like much, but it has a big difference in growth and especially new settler production.
2) Money is also more of a struggle on Tradition. I normally don't need markets at all as Progress, but I am in the red right now and I'm having to switch to some markets now to make it work.
3) Tradition does culture faster. While Progress has the faster Tier 2 policy, by Tier 4 I clearly feel Tradition is the faster culture collector.
4) Roads are slower. Its a combination of no incentive, slower workers, and it takes longer to get your worker pool up without the free one.
5) You do notice the increase speed in the capital at this point if your running the engineer. For me its a +3 hammer difference (engineer is +1 hammer over working a forest, +4 from tradition base in capital, -2 from progress bonus), and when your pushing out a wonder or building that +3 does make a key difference at this stage in the game.
6) Turn 112 is where I noticed the first true Tradition advantage in my opinion, my GE. Now on Progress honestly I don't factor GEs in my play a lot, you don't get them till forges and by that time I will often put down manufactories, as their bulbs aren't as strong at that point.
But in this case, the hanging gardens happened to be open. I didn't really make an attempt for it, but I had the GE so I snagged it. The fact that I have the option to do that is very nice if the opportunity presents itself.
7) Turn 123, so gold is interesting at this point. On the one hand, I feel like I just do not have as much gold for building investment. But on the other, I do find my borders are generally more "where I need them to be", so I have to invest less gold there. On the whole I think I'm still gold short in comparison but not as much as it might look on paper.
8) Even when trying to go wide, I think its worth doing a round of ITRs to the capital for Tradition. You really need that food early to get the city to a point where it can work specialists and still be productive. Otherwise, I notice I tend to get into a rut where either I'm not working any specialists just to get the city going, or I work specialists to sacrifice gains.
9) Turn 168: Going into war and getting my super elephants. Something I also noticed with Tradition as well is that local happiness is a much bigger deal than it is with Progress (once I get progress' happiness policy). I either really have to control population, or I don't have any non-capitals that can build military units with any good speed, putting a production burden on the capital.
10) Humanism really does generate a lot of GAP with tradition. I think this is one of the key synergies between Artistry and Tradition that Progress lacks. You have a good amount great works of literature at this point in the game with Tradition than Progress in most cases, so the extra GAP is a boost.
11) One note about Faith Buys. In general if your not going CV, then your faith options aren't that great with Tradition + Artistry. GEs just aren't making a big drive at this point, and I wouldn't ever go for a GMusician outside of CV. So generally this is why it pairs best with Rationalism to focus on GS when you can. However, that comes very late as compared to Progress that can culture bomb GWriters write as you hit industrial, really sending you towards your ideology quickly. This is still imo one of Progress' greatest advantages.
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But as you noted in previous posts, every so often the AI just forgets about it and you see it go much later.
