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Widening Artistry

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by tu_79, Sep 16, 2017.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    This are the proposed changes for Artistry in current beta:
    Both Humanism and Heritage have been critizised.
    The objective is to let Artistry be the tree that focuses on great works and great people, while being useful for several victory conditions and being size neutral (doesn't punish going wide or tall).
     
  2. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

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    ***Current Artistry***

    Opener:
    +25% Great Writer, Great Artist, and Great Musician rates in all Cities

    Scaler:
    +1 Science and Culture in every City

    Humanism:
    All Great Works produce +1 Golden Age Point and +2 Science. +4% Science in a City for every Great Work Present (up to 20%).

    Refinement:
    +1 happiness for every 3 Policies unlocked. +10% Culture in all Cities during Golden Ages.

    Heritage:
    World Wonders produce +2 Culture and Natural Wonders produce +5 Science. +50 Golden Age Points when you construct World or National Wonders, scaling with Era.

    National Treasure:
    A Great Person of your choice appears near your Capital. +50 Gold when you expend a Great Person, Scaling with Era.

    Cultural Exchange:
    The Tourism modifier for Open Borders with other Civilizations is increased by 20%. +2 Culture and +1 Production from all Guilds.
    .
    Finisher:
    -Unlocks building the Louvre
    -Completing an Archaeological Dig of starting a Golden Age generates Tourism with all known Civilizations.
    -Allows you to see Hidden Antiquity Sites.
    -Allows for the purchase of Great Musicians with Faith starting in the Industrial Era.

    ***Beta Version Artistry***

    Opener:
    +25% Great Person rate in all Cities

    Scaler:
    +1 Science and Culture in every City

    Humanism:
    Great Works of Art gain +3 Culture, Artifacts +3 Science, Music +3 Gold, and Literature +3 Golden Age Points. +4% Science in a City for every Great Work Present (up to 20%).

    Refinement:
    +1 happiness for every 4 Great Works in a City. +10% Culture in all Cities during Golden Ages.

    Heritage:
    +100 Tourism with all known civilizations when you train Archaeologists, Missionaries, Settlers, or Trade Units. +50 Golden Age Points when you construct World or National Wonders, scaling with Era.

    National Treasure:
    A Great Person of your choice appears near your Capital. +50 Gold when you expend a Great Person, Scaling with Era.

    Cultural Exchange:
    The Tourism modifier for Open Borders with other Civilizations is increased by 20%. +2 Culture and +1 Production from all Guilds.
    .
    Finisher:
    -Unlocks building the Louvre
    -Completing an Archaeological Dig of starting a Golden Age generates Tourism with all known Civilizations.
    -Allows you to see Hidden Antiquity Sites.
    -Allows for the purchase of Great Musicians with Faith starting in the Industrial Era.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  3. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

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    ***My proposed Version***

    Opener:
    +25% Great Person rate in all Cities

    Scaler:
    +1 Science and Culture in every City

    Humanism:
    Great Works of Art produce +5 Gold, Artifacts +3 Science, Music +3 Culture, and Literature +5 Golden Age Points. +4% Science in a City for every Great Work Present (up to 20%).
    [switched art and music so that musicians are better as they come later, and bumped up the amount of gold and golden age points.]

    Refinement:
    +1 happiness for every 3 Great Works. +10% Culture in all Cities during Golden Ages.
    [I don't like it being per city. It makes it really hard to get the happiness bonuses.]

    Heritage:
    +2 Tourism, +2 Gold, and +2 Golden Age Points from Universities. +50 Golden Age Points when you construct World or National Wonders, scaling with Era.
    [This should help wide out more than tall, and can't be abused by the player like the beta heritage can.]

    National Treasure:
    A Great Person of your choice appears near your Capital. +50 Gold when you expend a Great Person, Scaling with Era.

    Cultural Exchange:
    The Tourism modifier for Open Borders with other Civilizations is increased by 20%. Base Tourism penalty from number of owned non-puppet cities reduced by 1%. +2 Culture and +1 Production from all Guilds.
    [Helps wide compete in the tourism game. This is a 25% reduction, same as the rationalism policy. I don't think it should reduce the culture penalty because artistry will end up getting social policies too fast.]

    Finisher:
    -Unlocks building the Louvre
    -Completing an Archaeological Dig of starting a Golden Age generates Tourism with all known Civilizations.
    -Allows you to see Hidden Antiquity Sites.
    -Allows for the purchase of Great Musicians with Faith starting in the Industrial Era.
     
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I think it would be interesting to have the bonus be +1 happiness in cities with great works, so the player spreads them, and makes the decision whether to stack works in one city for the synergies or spread them for the happiness. But. We'll have to wait until Museums (modern age) for this to work. So no.

    For me, the difference between Aesthetics and Artistry, is that craftmen are more fit for the latter. But then, where are the craftmen in the tree? Oh, yes, great people. They have their great works improved, but yet no improvement to GPTI. I also liked the idea to have Archaeological sites improved, as it puts a question between artifact and sites.
    Buffing Universities seems to be liked by everyone, so I'd propose Heritage: +2 tourism +2 gold + GAP to Universities. +3 production to great people tile improvements and archaeological sites.
     
    Gokudo01 likes this.
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    This part is super OP. That's like an extra 15-30 production in the capital off one policy, which can be % buffed by tons of stuff. I'd just have the bonus apply to Arch sites if something was going to happen like that.
     
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Really? Are your capital workers ever working on tiles?
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I would like to see a buff to great person tiles returned to artistry, but I agree +3 hammers is too strong. It used to be +2 culture, which is fine. Or it could +2 of its main yield
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  8. Legen

    Legen King

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    Not everyone goes for Tradition. Progress and Authority civs can also have incentives for Artistry.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Current plan:

    Reduce GW->Happiness to 2
    Scrap tourism from unit building - add +3GAP/+3Tourism to University, and -3% to tourism penalty for # of cities.

    G
     
    Gokudo01 and Blue Ghost like this.
  10. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

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    The penalty is only 4%, 3% on large. this pretty much gets rid of it entirely.

    No plan to change great work of music bonus? it makes no sense for it to be the worst one
     
  11. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    it said it will increase the malus per city
     
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    +1 happiness every 2 GW? Local or global? Local might lead to interesting choices.

    Reducing penalty for # of cities, I like. Tourism to University not that much. If artisans were to improve an university building, it would become an institute of technology. GAP goes well, maybe production or culture too, but not tourism. Even faith could be justified (tech believers...), for using that faith on great artists later.

    Overall, I like the idea of Artistry boosting great people and great works, working well for both tall and wide, but if it gets too loaded on tourism, then it's making Artistry a must for the cultural victory.
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Yes, in those cases we are talking about increasing 10-15 hammers in just your capital while you have 20 cities. Not bad, but not game breaking either.
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    +2 tourism on a building is hardly loaded, and the % reduction per city makes artistry a little better for wide, which is good.

    G
     
  15. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Seems cool, will Fealty and Statecraft also be changed?
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    No, why would they?

    G
     
  17. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

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    @Gazebo Any Idea when these changes will come through? I'm really excited to try the next patch.
     
  18. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    Artistry looks way too specialized now.

    The scaler is actually good but all those policies feel wasted if you didn't already start producing great works with Tradition. You unlock the tree when artists guilds are ~50 turns in the future, musicians a distant hope. I might not have writers guilds yet, with a good culture production. Check the first 3 policies and what you get out of them with maybe a razed great work and a first work of literature. Next to nothing, except the scaler.

    The tree is good for tourism only, and the synergy with GPs is something that only works with tradition; the ''maximize the potential of golden ages'' in the description is quite deceiptive, it just gives the equivalent of a bath in all cities (again, only worth enough yelds in the capital or selected cities - so tradition friendly), and then a bunch of GAP maybe worth one GA late in the game, but the true GAs sources come from Fealty, with Taj Mahal and faith-bought artists; this just to say as a Persian you should stay the hell away from Artistry tree.

    Don't get me wrong the tree is full of powerful effects, but their timing is wrong. By Medieval GAPs, GPs, tourism... are weak effects, and it pidgeholes you into cultural victory with Tradition.
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Markets and Forges comes to mind for great people that you might be getting without Tradition. Merchants make for a WLTKD strategy. Engineers for Wonder whoring. Even scientists are available with libraries. You just need to have them in every city.
    Agree on the timing for GW without Tradition. We still can't purchase Great Writers. Maybe moving up the bonus for GW would be enough?
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the tree should be rearranged. The university policy should be available as one of the first two and lead to the +10% culture during golden ages. The order is better, and a wider empire can immediately grab the university policy (which they like) while the taller empire can get the great works policy and pursue that path.
     

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